Fly Fishing Forums


Go Back   Fly Fishing Forums > Casting Talk and Fishing Knots > Casting
Forums Register Blogs FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Endrick's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Stirlingshire
Posts: 1,405
Endrick is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Darren,

I didn't know it was a classic physics question however it is a classical example of the concept of the imaginary fulcrum - despite it's name there is nothing imaginary about it. It is the point around which a system - in this case a rod - rotates.

For what it's worth the point on the oar which is the fulcrum - imaginary or real - varies depending on whether the oar is in the water and the boat being rowed - or whether the oar is wholly in the air.

The oar in the air (i.e when the oar is in being moved back to take the next stroke) rotates around the fulcrum which is the rowlock. When the oar is actually in the water and the stroke is being made made the fulcrum (i.fulcrum) is at a point about 2 feet or so from the tip of the oar.

Malcolm
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
minitube is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Maughan View Post
Being able to control the use of the top/bottom hand is something that most two-handed casters struggle with. I see it every day I teach and along with progression of speed is the single hardest thing a caster needs to master.
Many thanks for your post Alan and I can certainly relate to the piece above as well as the rest of the post. Its by no means an easy style / way of casting to teach.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:24 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
minitube is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by cb View Post
This thread is fascinating and is important in understanding the actual mechanics of what is both an art and a science. Speycasting.

Thank you Minitube & Sportfisher for keeping a level and sensible discussion going with such good spirit.

Let's park the word/definition of fulcrum for the moment and look at hand movement. It has been said that the videos are out of context - but actually they show a superb spread of styles from Underhand to Tournament with fulcrum being the most represented. In them we are seeing a range of brilliant casts from some of the world's best Speycasters.

So let's look at them again.

Ok what does the final stroke in each and every video have in common?

This is what I am observing.

1. The top hand always moves towards the target
2. The bottom hand always moves away from the target
3. There is a point in the cast where the top hand and the bottom hand are vertically aligned and then they cross over.
4. The top hand moves roughly the same distance as the bottom hand.
5. The distance the hands travel relative to each other is defined by the distance the hands are apart.
6. Both hands come to an abrupt stop
7. When they stop they are almost exactly the same distance apart (horizontally) as when the cast started.

Please do watch ALL of the videos again and let us know if you see different.

We can them move on as to the mechanism that is causing these observations.

Cheers

Colin
Colin, you don't answer my question but now want me to answer your series of points.

Did I not relate that I'm not interested in scientific exactitudes, or relate clearly enough the simple context of our use of the word.

That I'm not using the top hand dominant for power application - thats it.

Or that some of the clips are not presented as Fulcrum style.

If it was 50 / 50 in terms of power application it would be easy to teach but those that teach it know its not easy.

Now I think you're not understanding the difference during the stroke and change over from mainly position change to mainly angle change, thus point 2 is wrong. Forward and down movement is part of the stroke.

I'm not saying that there is no effort from the top hand as it travels through the stroke, have never said that. It is going to where it is going and creating stroke length.

It is about high rod tip stops (usually), tight loops, wind piercing V loops formed in plane without force, trajectory control, no reaching, economy of effort, rod tip counter flex or rod tip turnover speed / unloading energy in the direction of loop formation, leading with the butt, appreciation of Scottish style rods and inherent rod unloading properties being used for loop formation e.t.c. Thus the use of the bottom hand to create the main angle change rolling the rod around the top hand before the stop of both hands is most appropriate, as is leading with the butt before that occurs.

I will also say that other people will do other things and do them very well.

Last edited by minitube; 03-10-2011 at 09:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 13-10-2011, 12:44 PM
fishingeoin's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: limerick,Ireland
Posts: 6
fishingeoin is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

The fulcrum point can not be in the middle of the two hands in this style of casting as you can not have a fulcrum point on a straight object with a support above it. The Pivot point no matter what way you look at it has to be the top hand. The concept did not at any stage state that it was a stationary fixed fulcrum therefore if you want to get scientific about it the constant K is always changing at each stage of the cast therefore is not a constant and is not FIXED. The fulcrum point (top hand)is changing position but always remains the fulcrum point.

Last edited by fishingeoin; 13-10-2011 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 13-10-2011, 02:13 PM
cb cb is offline
Fish&Fly
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Durham
Posts: 1,341
Blog Entries: 2
cb will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitube View Post
Have you Endrick or cb ever read page thirteen intro and diagram one script of Al Buhr's book on two handed casting? This is for me the single most important piece of writing I have come across on double-handed casting forward stroke fundamentals ever, and I have said so on my site.
And

Quote:
Originally Posted by minitube View Post
Al Buhr, page 13 diagram 1,
Buhr 13:1 - see the light.
Yes, I have read it and have it here in front of me. It really, truly is an excellent book. But Mr Buhr also gives very mixed messages about his energetic fulcrum. And the illustrated diagram 13:1 is simply odd! – and the very next page in his book - where he shows a photographic sequence of casts - shows why.

Let’s examine a bit further – using our eyes not our hearts.

Fig 1. (copy of 13:1)

Click the image to open in full size.

This is a tracing of the hand positions (and rod in between) – taken from Mr Buhr’s fig 13:1. (I haven’t shown the actual drawing for copyright reasons) but can assure you of the accuracy of the tracing. This is how Mr Buhr says the forward cast should be – with the top hand a “dynamic or driving pivot point” (his words).

You can see that according to this diagram the bottom hand never goes behind where it started during the forward cast. Now take a look at the videos again and the sequence below. Do they follow this pattern? No – only the big body/arm movements shown by the tournament caster come close to this.


Fig 2. These are tracings of the hand positions (and rod in between) taken from Mr Buhr’s photos of his forward cast on the next page. (it isn’t perfectly side on so not as clear as it might be.

Click the image to open in full size.


Fig 3. A similar tracing of the excellent pro caster Mark Roberts - taken from video - Green = starting position - blue middle - red stop.

Click the image to open in full size.


Fig 4. A similar tracing of the excellent pro caster Robert Gillespie

Click the image to open in full size.


Fig 5. A similar tracing of the excellent tournament caster Gordon Armstrong

Click the image to open in full size.


Fig 6. A similar tracing from the excellent pro caster Goran Andersson

Click the image to open in full size.


The remarkable similarity is profound. And the beautiful symmetry of movement is clear for all too see. They bear little resemblance to fig 13:1 of Mr Buhr. But strangely they do look more like his fig 13.4!

In all cases,

The top and bottom hands start to move at exactly the same time.
They stop moving at exactly the same time.
They cross over at the vertical.
They move in opposite directions.
They rotate the rod at almost precisely 90 degrees. (1.30pm to 10.30pm)
They move very similar distances.

So if they are moving very similar distances – starting at stopping at the same time and crossing over – what does this tell us?

Mr Buhr – actually goes on to state something quite telling on Page 43. In his section called, Quickening the cast – “The top wrist snaps the thumb forward as the lower wrist snaps the lower palm forward, creating two opposing forces that attempt to break the rod handle in half.”

Now where would the rod snap? - At the top hand or somewhere between the two?

Anyway, you may not be convinced but it has certainly illustrated just how precise these top casters are at stopping and starting the rod rotation at exactly the correct moment! If we can learn anything from this - it is that!

Colin

(PS. I'm really surprised how much the top hand drops. Keeping it rising or at least on a horizontal plane certainly helps keep tight loops in single handed casting and I try and keep it so myself in spey casting - well at least I thought I did - will have to take video and do some tracings!).

Last edited by cb; 13-10-2011 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Added Gordon
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 13-10-2011, 06:17 PM
Alan Maughan's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 152
Alan Maughan is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Quote:
Originally Posted by cb View Post

In all cases,

The top and bottom hands start to move at exactly the same time.
They stop moving at exactly the same time.
They cross over at the vertical.
They move in opposite directions.
They rotate the rod at almost precisely 90 degrees. (1.30pm to 10.30pm)
They move very similar distances.


So if they are moving very similar distances – starting at stopping at the same time and crossing over – what does this tell us?
It tells us that rotation is part of a fly cast, nothing more. What else do you think it tells us?

Last edited by Alan Maughan; 13-10-2011 at 06:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 14-10-2011, 02:50 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
minitube is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

The simple, cartoon like, spread out drawing in Al Buhr's book demonstrates a concept or principle in a very simple and clear way - as it is intended to do so. A principle of forward and down movement or motion of the whole rod as the angle change occurs and leading with the butt at one point. It is nothing other than this and as such shows a few angle changes of a rod to demonstrate the concept - of the type or angle change made over the last two thirds or even a section of a stroke in my opinion - however for clarity in the drawing he spreads out the individual drawings a little more, rightly so as it is only a simple cartoon like illustration and nothing more. This way a better understanding of the fundamental principle is related without a more complex series of drawings showing more overlapping or super imposed positions.

To take such a simple and deliberately cartoon like drawing demonstrating a simple principle in a very simple but clear way, and to then use it as a representation of an exact starting and stopping position of an actual cast for comparison with actual footage of real casting, to use it in such a manner, and use it as any template for exact or scientific measuring purposes, seriously mis represents the actual purpose and presentation of the drawing IMHO.

It is nothing other than a simple illustration representing a fundamental principle of casting in a simple way - that the rod moves forward leading with the butt and the angle changes as it does so by the bottom hand pulling in - rolling the rod around the top hand as it moves forward. It is not any actual exact representation of the starting and stopping points or exact hand positions of any actual cast. It simply relates a concept via a particular medium.

In a similar way in real life when I show in overhead casting with a single or double-handed rod the fundamental importance of making position and angle change in the right sequence and amount,and the resulting loop shapes involved, I will exaggerate the movement greatly to relate it by using a very long stroke, more so than when actual casting. This is much better for relating to others exactly what is going on. When actually casting normally the movements will be made relative to the stroke length used and therefore not as noticeable to others unless they have previously been made aware of what is happening.

Last edited by minitube; 14-10-2011 at 09:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 14-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 14
sportfisher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

It really pains me to see someone struggling with such a simple but fundamental concept in creating effective leverage.

Last edited by sportfisher; 14-10-2011 at 09:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 14-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
minitube is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

I'm going to state clearly that when I and some others teach Spey casting with a double-handed rod we teach it in a way that the bottom hand is dominant in power application on the final delivery. Body movement from weight shift and re alignment after upper body rotation will also be contributing to the power application of the forward cast, as well as on any set up.

I will clearly state that my rod is either rotating around my top hand as the forward stroke is made or else both hands are moving forward together initially during lead as the body movement weight shift starts it. Mainly because I ensure I go the long way around to the key position and don't make any short cut movement near the end. Almost immediately after the initial forward movement there is a little but increasing angle change made from the bottom hand pulling the rod around the top hand support, done as the top hand continues its movement forward and down, it all finishes with mainly angle change occurring. Some slight position change may continue as the mainly angle change finish is made. The top hand is fairly relaxed throughout but also moving to where it has to go to, however with minimal power yet it locks for the stop.

We do not use the words translation and rotation as translation is restrictive - translation means every point is moving forward at exactly the same amount and that is usually not happening, some slight angle change occurs in a mainly position change move.

There are many other nuances that make up this style using the word fulcrum as a label for both single and double-handed casting. Such as the use of a straight line incline movement and continuous motion in overhead casting for line height management behind, and therefore most specifically not any slight arch. The use of specific exercises to fine tune aspects of technique. Therefore it is not just one issue ever but a combination of things.

I have explained previously that I don't actually particularly care all that much if there is a visual axis elsewhere or even if it is proved scientifically that another fulcrum appears somewhere else on the rod as I use the term in context, and in relation to the use of the two hands and the two hands only, in the context of ensuring that the top hand is maintained as the fulcrum, therefore ensuring that the rod rotates around the support of the top hand as the top hand moves forward to create stroke length.

If a camera motion correction device was used to ensure the top hand stayed in the centre of the screen then the rod would clearly be seen rotating around the top hand or it acting as a point beyond which a cantilever extends in the initial stages of a forward cast.

I have taught this style and methodology for years and used it for all examinations including for the teaching explanations sections of examinations, no examiner ever made any correction of its use and all accepted the style and description of it with both single and double-handed rods.

I will be away teaching the style this weekend, as I was last weekend and will continue to teach it under that title for the style no matter what. Personally I consider it to be an extremely efficient and effective style as well as real world orientated. I'll say again to be very clear that I don't particularly care even if any visual axis appears elsewhere as that is not the teaching methodology or the context. I am not overly interested in exacting scientific analysis.
I get all the necessary feedback visually, and from feel fairly instantly, from the resulting loop morphology of each cast in order to alter or fine tune my technique and that is usually what I rely on for correct technique, occasionally on basic theory fundamentals or related tips from others of experience. On countless occasions with double-handed Spey casting I have seen the struggle removed and epiphany moments reached for peopel, especially on the set up of a D loop also, when they really start to use efficient leverage in this manner and make the bottom hand active, ensuring the bottom hand and body movement take over in terms of power application and that the rod is pivoting at the top hand.
That’s all good enough for me and yet I understand that it may not be for the scientists, but then I’m not involved in discerning exacting technicalities within that field and most likely won’t be.

I’m normally a live and let live person so if I have been abrupt at any time Colin I apologise for that, I probably have been. I honestly have no interest in whether or not any visual axis exists and is a fulcrum also. It may well be that that is the case, as Gallileo once said “and still the earth moves,” my rod will still roll or rotate around the support of my top hand whether or not there exists a visual pivot or axis elsewhere. I am also quite sure also that no top hand pusher will be doing any Toft style blocks for a final delivery.
That’s about it from me as it is pointless re hashing over things, if you have a differing view or theory that’s fine, even if you prove it that's fine too.

I also notice that when I practice this style no matter how far I can cast using another more direct or forceful technique, a stylish Fulcrum style cast goes almost as far with much less effort, there is more joy in doing that for me and more relevance to how I want to fish with either a single or double handed rod. That is another aspect - striving for control with economy of effort. Other people cast this way too, it is not exclusive to anyone or any group, or any few people, it is a choice anyone can freely make.

I cannot actually speak for anyone else or what they do including Al Buhr either, I have seen him cast and do many truly amazing things with a fly rod and his knowledge is astounding. More importantly for me I find he has the most impeccable character and humility though that is beside the point. However he once did demonstrate a cast in this style by moving the top hand beside and close to but not ever touching the rod, he could do this as it was an all bottom hand dominated style and he had the strength to do so - fishhunt who is now in Canada fishing seen that demo too - I am not strong enough to do that on the final delivery for a demo like that but he was.

Anyway peace to all, will be busy over the weekend.

Last edited by minitube; 14-10-2011 at 05:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 14-10-2011, 11:06 PM
ohanzee's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12,201
ohanzee is a jewel in the roughohanzee is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: Fulcrum Spey Casting

Robert, for what its worth, im pretty sure 99.8% agree, less effort and more control can only be efficient leverage.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.flyfishing.co.uk/casting/192310-fulcrum-spey-casting.html
Posted By For Type Date
Real Traditional Spey rod - Page 2 - Salmon Fishing Forums This thread Pingback 02-10-2011 08:40 PM

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spey Casting Course Alberto Game Angling Instructors in Scotland 0 02-09-2011 12:37 PM
Spey casting david_perry@btconnect.com General Fly Fishing Discussion 0 04-05-2008 12:15 PM
Spey Casting Clan Chief Casting 12 13-02-2007 01:10 AM
spey casting grilsehunter Salmon Fishing 21 12-02-2007 12:52 PM
What is Spey Casting underwood Casting 11 24-08-2006 07:52 AM











All times are GMT. The time now is 11:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1
2006-2014 Fish&Fly Ltd