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  #11  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy1 View Post
Wouldn't stocked fish expect their food to splash?
And the overall colour of a March Brown is similar to a trout pellet. Not that March Browns live in stillwaters. A loose substitute for a Claret or Sepia dun!

I've posted this before, but you can have it again.
Fishing a res with a black gnat dry. Cast to a cruising rainbow which looked but ignored it. Then a minnow took the dry and spat it out. The gnat was now subsurface and the rainbow instantly turned and took the gnat. The bow was landed and returned.
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  #12  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddleston123 View Post
I often think that it would be very useful to know how many trout view your fly and simply say 'No Thanks'
I have posted this before but its on the button, I know a couple of lochs that have high banks and very clear water, you can see the fish quite clearly, and its easy to see how many fish come to the fly and what they do when they get there, the picture is way more complex than you might imagine and rather than make it easier, it poses a lot more questions.
From watching the reactions on one small steep sided enclosed loch for an hour, I watched fish come, sometimes two, from a surprising distance, maybe 50', most appeared to have located the fly from that distance because they came straight to it without turning, initially every cast brought at least one fish, they often came on the second cast but less enthusiastically, by the third cast in a 30' radius nothing came, none of these fish took the fly and if you were not able to see below the surface you would never know this was going on.
It appears to me that trout have their own areas but these seem to overlap with others because every now and again a different fish would wander by and often there were two close together, but after two casts it was clear nothing was coming from that bit, returning to the bit previously fished wasn't much good either, my take is they just don't like the disturbance and its got nothing to do with the fly, they just aint coming after the second cast into that bit, you can actually see them getting uneasy.
Moving to another bit and new fish are immediately on the fly, its quick, within seconds they are at it but this is where it gets really strange, the number of things they do on arriving at the fly is a surprise, a common one is circling the fly slowly before moving away just a few feet then returning, when I moved the fly at this point expecting them to take an interest all swam away immediately, the ones that came from further mostly came quick, some halt right at the fly so close to almost touch it, a couple looked at it and bolted, at one point two fish came fast from opposite directions and spooked each other when they close in on the fly shooting off in different directions, the range of reactions I saw in one hour was so broad I don't think I was any closer to understanding what would work better than anything else, what struck me though and has formed a solid opinion ever since is they fly doesn't matter as much as we think, I changed flies a dozen times expecting to see a different reaction, mixed as it was there was nothing much different that I saw with a different fly, the other thing was 'still' works far more often than 'moving', just twitching the fly put all the fish off that came for a look, the only time a pulled fly worked was when interceptors came in after the fly was moving, and out of those almost all followed it only as far as shallow water then off they went, I didn't catch on the one wet fly I tried, or a tweaked dry, caught two on a static dry, those didn't do anything other than turn, swim up to the fly and grab it without hesitation, at least every second cast brought a fish to the fly, usually the first cast, but I was moving into fresh water because I could see zero interest after two casts, and a different water might bring very different reactions.
I changed a lot of fundamental things after that, I no longer cast repeatedly into the same bit of water, take way, way more care with presentation, especially the pick up, this scares more fish than a bad landing, they still came to the odd splashy landing but if you rip the line off the water it sends them flying in all directions, I'm confident that as long as its reasonably calm if there is a taking fish within 30 or 40' it hears it land and knows exactly where it is before it even starts coming, they take about 6 seconds to get there, but sometimes fart about around it before taking it, the ones that do this take very tentatively, I missed every one of those even seeing them, I try to cast much less now, or at least I know my impatience is costing me fish, Ideally I'd cast once every 40' not move it and just wait, I'd be lying if I said I practice what I learn all the time, and although this experience taught me to be way more careful and maybe visualise whats going on below the surface I don't catch more fish.
The above is only a fraction of it and a second pair of eyes would or a better fisher would have spotted a whole lot more, but there is a lot more going on down there than we realise, and every single tiny movement we make has a whole world of significance down there, mostly putting the damn things off, one of the most interesting things is that when you can see them you learn not to move anything...I don't know anyone that fishes like that.

Last edited by ohanzee; 12-09-2017 at 10:47 PM.
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  #13  
Old 13-09-2017, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by taffy1 View Post
Wouldn't stocked fish expect their food to splash?
ALL trout will react to a plop/splash. I was with Brian Clarke on the Wylye one afternoon many years ago. We spotted a nice trout underneath some overhanging willow branches. Getting a fly above the fish was impossible but Brian dropped a weighted nymph just behind the fish which spun round to see what the "noise" was about, spotted the nymph and promptly took it.

Mike Weaver on the Teign in Devon writing about fishing the caterpillar that drops from the overhanging oak trees says it should land with a fish-attracting "plop". I myself have caught scores of fish on rivers in this country and Austria on weighted nymphs, the take occurring immediately after the the fly landed.

Stand on a bridge over a river and as long as the water is clear so that fish can be spotted. Drop a small piece of road grit upstream of an observed fish and watch his reaction. Almost without fail he will sail over and take it. Spits it out promptly as soon as he twigs it isn't edible, but the point is he was attracted by the plop of the grit landing.

Not all stock fish by the way. Trout get a lot of food from above and a lot of it arrives with a plop that the fish must hear and evolution does the rest.

One of the places I do a fair amount of teaching beginners is on a well stocked small and very clear lake overgrown pond really. Because the water is so clear the reaction of the fish is very obvious. If a dry is cast out and left the fish just ignore it if it hasn't been taken within about ten seconds. I have begun to suspect we could leave a fly floating for an hour with no response. Cast that same fly near a fish and he will very often take it the moment it lands. Leave it and nothing happens. The fish swim under it and past it totally ignoring it.

Drop a nymph in and there is an instant response if there is going to be one at all. Again, if it isn't taken by the time it has sunk about 18" it won't be taken at all. It is the best place I've ever been to for observing trout behaviour. Incidentally, even using 8lb tippet and having it floating on the surface makes no difference at all. If a fish wants the fly, he'll take it, floating tippet or not.

Last edited by BobP; 13-09-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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  #14  
Old 13-09-2017, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohanzee View Post
I have posted this before but its on the button, I know a couple of lochs that have high banks and very clear water, you can see the fish quite clearly, and its easy to see how many fish come to the fly and what they do when they get there, the picture is way more complex than you might imagine and rather than make it easier, it poses a lot more questions.
From watching the reactions on one small steep sided enclosed loch for an hour, I watched fish come, sometimes two, from a surprising distance, maybe 50', most appeared to have located the fly from that distance because they came straight to it without turning, initially every cast brought at least one fish, they often came on the second cast but less enthusiastically, by the third cast in a 30' radius nothing came, none of these fish took the fly and if you were not able to see below the surface you would never know this was going on.
It appears to me that trout have their own areas but these seem to overlap with others because every now and again a different fish would wander by and often there were two close together, but after two casts it was clear nothing was coming from that bit, returning to the bit previously fished wasn't much good either, my take is they just don't like the disturbance and its got nothing to do with the fly, they just aint coming after the second cast into that bit, you can actually see them getting uneasy.
Moving to another bit and new fish are immediately on the fly, its quick, within seconds they are at it but this is where it gets really strange, the number of things they do on arriving at the fly is a surprise, a common one is circling the fly slowly before moving away just a few feet then returning, when I moved the fly at this point expecting them to take an interest all swam away immediately, the ones that came from further mostly came quick, some halt right at the fly so close to almost touch it, a couple looked at it and bolted, at one point two fish came fast from opposite directions and spooked each other when they close in on the fly shooting off in different directions, the range of reactions I saw in one hour was so broad I don't think I was any closer to understanding what would work better than anything else, what struck me though and has formed a solid opinion ever since is they fly doesn't matter as much as we think, I changed flies a dozen times expecting to see a different reaction, mixed as it was there was nothing much different that I saw with a different fly, the other thing was 'still' works far more often than 'moving', just twitching the fly put all the fish off that came for a look, the only time a pulled fly worked was when interceptors came in after the fly was moving, and out of those almost all followed it only as far as shallow water then off they went, I didn't catch on the one wet fly I tried, or a tweaked dry, caught two on a static dry, those didn't do anything other than turn, swim up to the fly and grab it without hesitation, at least every second cast brought a fish to the fly, usually the first cast, but I was moving into fresh water because I could see zero interest after two casts, and a different water might bring very different reactions.
I changed a lot of fundamental things after that, I no longer cast repeatedly into the same bit of water, take way, way more care with presentation, especially the pick up, this scares more fish than a bad landing, they still came to the odd splashy landing but if you rip the line off the water it sends them flying in all directions, I'm confident that as long as its reasonably calm if there is a taking fish within 30 or 40' it hears it land and knows exactly where it is before it even starts coming, they take about 6 seconds to get there, but sometimes fart about around it before taking it, the ones that do this take very tentatively, I missed every one of those even seeing them, I try to cast much less now, or at least I know my impatience is costing me fish, Ideally I'd cast once every 40' not move it and just wait, I'd be lying if I said I practice what I learn all the time, and although this experience taught me to be way more careful and maybe visualise whats going on below the surface I don't catch more fish.
The above is only a fraction of it and a second pair of eyes would or a better fisher would have spotted a whole lot more, but there is a lot more going on down there than we realise, and every single tiny movement we make has a whole world of significance down there, mostly putting the damn things off, one of the most interesting things is that when you can see them you learn not to move anything...I don't know anyone that fishes like that.
I have to say that is the single most interesting thing I've ever read on here, brilliant. Post of the year, methinks.
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  #15  
Old 13-09-2017, 02:16 PM
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I see this happening with coarse fish as well as game fish, I put it down to the food they are eating or have eaten. When they are not hungry, they become more selective and take more time to look at what they are about to eat. When they are starving, anything that hits the water gets hammered as soon as it lands.
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  #16  
Old 13-09-2017, 04:33 PM
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I put a camera in a spot underwater where trout and grayling were lying. After the initial disturbance the fish returned. There were around seventy fish in total and I only snagged two of them. They can be seen on the video sometimes moving out of the way of the nymphs and sometimes ignoring them completely.
Maybe they could have done with some viagra to perform on camera.
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  #17  
Old 13-09-2017, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hydropsyched View Post
They can be seen on the video sometimes moving out of the way of the nymphs...
That reminds me of a day grayling fishing on the River Clyde a good few years ago. As often seems to be the case with the Clyde, it was as if there wasn't a fish in it, but then we came to a pool that had hundreds of grayling lying in a huge shoal. Good fish - pound and a half average. Trying to do the bird flock counters' method of adding them up - that's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10; that's 10,20,30,40,50; that's 50,100 and so on, we reckoned 400 fish.

We were on trotting gear. One of us went up above the shoal and carefully lowered the float and maggot combo in. Downstream it went and, as it reached the shoal, the shoal parted like Moses parting the Red Sea. The fish moved aside to form a path for the float to pass safely between them and, after it passed, they zipped themselves up to reform a continuous unit.

This was about 2 in the afternoon. We went on upriver, and as the light was starting to fade, we came back down to the same pool. The shoal was still there. With the light levels lower, we retried the trot through. This time, no problem... every trot a grayling.

Col
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  #18  
Old 13-09-2017, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
That reminds me of a day grayling fishing on the River Clyde a good few years ago. As often seems to be the case with the Clyde, it was as if there wasn't a fish in it, but then we came to a pool that had hundreds of grayling lying in a huge shoal. Good fish - pound and a half average. Trying to do the bird flock counters' method of adding them up - that's 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10; that's 10,20,30,40,50; that's 50,100 and so on, we reckoned 400 fish.

We were on trotting gear. One of us went up above the shoal and carefully lowered the float and maggot combo in. Downstream it went and, as it reached the shoal, the shoal parted like Moses parting the Red Sea. The fish moved aside to form a path for the float to pass safely between them and, after it passed, they zipped themselves up to reform a continuous unit.

This was about 2 in the afternoon. We went on upriver, and as the light was starting to fade, we came back down to the same pool. The shoal was still there. With the light levels lower, we retried the trot through. This time, no problem... every trot a grayling.

Col


It almost sounds like they had their set meal times!


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  #19  
Old 13-09-2017, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddleston123 View Post
It almost sounds like they had their set meal times!

Douglas
Well, that is a possibility - been plenty times before that I've had the best of the day's grayling fishing just as light is fading. But then, is that because it is feeding time, or is it because they are not seeing the deception in the fading light?

Col
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  #20  
Old 13-09-2017, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: No Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohanzee View Post
I changed a lot of fundamental things after that, I no longer cast repeatedly into the same bit of water, take way, way more care with presentation, especially the pick up, this scares more fish than a bad landing, they still came to the odd splashy landing but if you rip the line off the water it sends them flying in all directions, I'm confident that as long as its reasonably calm if there is a taking fish within 30 or 40' it hears it land and knows exactly where it is before it even starts coming, they take about 6 seconds to get there, but sometimes fart about around it before taking it, the ones that do this take very tentatively, I missed every one of those even seeing them, I try to cast much less now, or at least I know my impatience is costing me fish.
This is what we find. We keep getting poo-poo'd by folk who bang on about, "If a fish is going to take your dry, it will do it within 5 seconds, so cast, cast, cast." (You folk know who you are )

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohanzee View Post
Ideally I'd cast once every 40' not move it and just wait.
Do you mean cast once every 40 seconds? That's probably about what me and my pals do, on average, though there are occasions where a twitch will induce a take, especially if they are tuning into terrestrials that give a kick, like heather flies and shieldbugs do.
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