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Thread: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

  1. #381
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    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
    Shutterless? Not heard that expression before...
    And yes, I have big telephotos lenses that need a big, full-sized body. Looks like I never will get a mirrorless body I can put them straight onto now...

    Col[/QUOTE]

    Almost certainly that will be the case - there's no point going mirrorless if you hang onto the redundant mirror box space like Sigma and Pentax did - and predictably both designs bombed in the market. Adapters abound that keep full communication functionality and even the AF speed in many cases.

    Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??-sigma-jpg

  2. #382

    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    Almost certainly that will be the case - there's no point going mirrorless if you hang onto the redundant mirror box space like Sigma and Pentax did - and predictably both designs bombed in the market. Adapters abound that keep full communication functionality and even the AF speed in many cases.
    So, why do they need to change the lens mount when they ditch the mirror box and fill in the space?

    If I had been waiting for a FF mirrorless with an adaptor to put my EF mount lenses onto, I could have been trying out a Sony body any time! I'm still to be convinced a full-sized FF mirrorless is giving me much I don't already have (apart from faster frame rate), and it is taking away my optical viewfinder. I might hire one for a weekend and take it on the winter pheasant shooting. See how it performs at trying to focus on a galloping dog, falling bird, etc.

    Col
    Last edited by Cap'n Fishy; 04-10-2018 at 08:35 AM.
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  3. #383
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    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
    So, why do they need to change the lens mount when they ditch the mirror box and fill in the space?

    If I had been waiting for a FF mirrorless with an adaptor to put my EF mount lenses onto, I could have been trying out a Sony body any time! I'm still to be convinced a full-sized FF mirrorless is giving me much I don't already have (apart from faster frame rate), and it is taking away my optical viewfinder. I might hire one for a weekend and take it on the winter pheasant shooting. See how it performs at trying to focus on a galloping dog, falling bird, etc.

    Col
    The EF to Sony mount is probably one of the most common adapters sold.

    Change is inevitable! But C and N (unlike Sony) have wisely made their new mounts wider to allow for for optical designs that will deliver the light straight to the sensor, or with minimal angles into the edges to improve the pixel capture. Indeed you can get any of of your Canon glass onto a Sony, but frankly many have complained about the Sony A series handling and control layout. So don't expect any miracles there. The EOS-R will be more closely designed to the Canon DSLR style, but again it won't be identical.

    Not sure about Sony mirrorless, but the Panasonic and Olympus EVFs have the option to present the image as per whatever settings you have - this is a real advantage as it means as you dial in + or - compensation you will see what effect it has before you shoot.

    Example below was heavily backlit in daylight, I dialled in the usual +2 stops but was still mostly silhouette, so kept going until got what i wanted at +4 and then clicked the shutter.
    Saves the time doing PP to raise the shadows and getting the image noise collateral damage.
    Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??-pa040765-jpg
    Last edited by ps3737; 05-10-2018 at 06:15 AM.

  4. #384

    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    ... C and N (unlike Sony) have wisely made their new mounts wider to allow for for optical designs that will deliver the light straight to the sensor, or with minimal angles into the edges to improve the pixel capture.
    OK, so, if the new R-mount is wider for this advantage, there is no point in buying an adaptor and putting EF lenses onto an R body, as it will totally negate the advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    The EOS-R will be more closely designed to the Canon DSLR style, but again it won't be identical.
    You would think... but I have seen it in a big review in the new edition of the Canon magazine 'EOS', and it is absolutely nothing like any of the Canon dSLRs I have owned over the years. It is radically different in design and layout. I don't like the look of it at all!

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    Not sure about Sony mirrorless, but the Panasonic and Olympus EVFs have the option to present the image as per whatever settings you have - this is a real advantage as it means as you dial in + or - compensation you will see what effect it has before you shoot.
    Yeh - been able to do that with my dSLRs for many years (in live view mode). I was shooting that way just yesterday.

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  5. #385

    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??-sigma-jpg
    Here's a thing...

    If you are taking away the optical viewfinder, then you can put the EVF anywhere you want. But every mirrorless camera I have seen still puts the EVF somewhere around the centre of the top of the camera. That's where my viewfinder is, and when I look through it, I smudge the LCD panel with the grease from my nose (I have a substantial one! ). If I have slathered Factor 50 all over my coupon before going out, the LCD ends up as well-protected from the sun as I am. This must be the same for nearly everyone else? So, as they can move the EVF anywhere they like, why not have it on the top left corner? Nose passes on the outside now, and no more greasy LCDs! I realise this depends on the user being right-eyed. I did think about the possibility of make the EVF a removable unit that could be plugged in to either the top left or top right corner, but the top right corner is rather occupied by the right thumb and the buttons it operates. You could put it anywhere you like along the bottom and look through your left eye, while your nose is out the way underneath it. Might take a bit of getting used to... like EVFs in general...

    Just a thought...

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  6. #386
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    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
    Here's a thing...

    If you are taking away the optical viewfinder, then you can put the EVF anywhere you want. But every mirrorless camera I have seen still puts the EVF somewhere around the centre of the top of the camera. That's where my viewfinder is, and when I look through it, I smudge the LCD panel with the grease from my nose (I have a substantial one! ). If I have slathered Factor 50 all over my coupon before going out, the LCD ends up as well-protected from the sun as I am. This must be the same for nearly everyone else? So, as they can move the EVF anywhere they like, why not have it on the top left corner? Nose passes on the outside now, and no more greasy LCDs! I realise this depends on the user being right-eyed. I did think about the possibility of make the EVF a removable unit that could be plugged in to either the top left or top right corner, but the top right corner is rather occupied by the right thumb and the buttons it operates. You could put it anywhere you like along the bottom and look through your left eye, while your nose is out the way underneath it. Might take a bit of getting used to... like EVFs in general...

    Just a thought...

    Col
    That's the legacy design that so far the majority of mirrorless still emulate to make it easier for people to transition over from their DSLR. In M43 format the PEN-F has a rangefinder type design with EVF offset and a couple of Panasonic have similar layout.
    Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??-olympus-pen-34-1-jpg

    With digital a truely modular camera body is possible, but no-one has been brave enough to actually go commercial - and of course ensuring all the electronic connections are rugged enough to stand up to weather and hard handling.

    For something different you could keep your eyes on the Triple Alliance (Leica, Sigma, Panasonic) around the FFm L-mount which will see Panasonic and Sigma introducing new mirrorless camera bodies and lenses in early 2019.

  7. #387

    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by ps3737 View Post
    For something different you could keep your eyes on the Triple Alliance (Leica, Sigma, Panasonic) around the FFm L-mount which will see Panasonic and Sigma introducing new mirrorless camera bodies and lenses in early 2019.
    Good to see someone agreed with my idea on where to put the viewfinder. Not so good for left-eyed people, though!

    For my future, the issue is the same. I have a set of EF lenses, and what is right for them is an EF-mount FF body... and there is only really the one option... for as long as they keep making them. Reckoned to be at least another 10 years...

    The other thing is the button layout. For many years I have been operating the AF, the AF mode and the active AF points with my right thumb. It's instinctive now, and I want to continue to do it that way. Canon dSLRs have the 3 buttons required in a row across the back, covered neatly by the right thumb, and the layout is +/- universal - so you can upgrade, or change lineages and you'll still have those 3 buttons where you are used to having them...



    Here's the EOS-R...



    They've screwed with the 3 buttons. Why? They must have concluded they are not going to be selling EOS-R bodies to existing Canon dSLR users.

    I also toggle Servo focus with 'One-shot' focus with 3rd finger, right hand (button inside hand grip on front)...



    Officially it's the depth of field preview button, but I reassigned it to be the AF mode toggle. Again, I am so used to this, it is now second nature. I don't want to change cameras and lose all these ergonomics just in order to get rid of the mirror - which doesn't bother me in the slightest anyway.

    Another thing - battery life. I can get nearly 2000 shots out a battery charge. On my recent day photographing leaping salmon I took 1228 shots and had 30% charge left... and that was with an ancient battery... and with GPS switched on... and with chimp review switched on... No need to stop half way though to change batteries and maybe miss the shot of the day.

    I guess I will need to make the most of the next ten years...

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  8. #388
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    Default Re: Mirrorless Compact System Cameras ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
    Good to see someone agreed with my idea on where to put the viewfinder. Not so good for left-eyed people, though!

    For my future, the issue is the same. I have a set of EF lenses, and what is right for them is an EF-mount FF body... and there is only really the one option... for as long as they keep making them. Reckoned to be at least another 10 years...

    The other thing is the button layout. For many years I have been operating the AF, the AF mode and the active AF points with my right thumb. It's instinctive now, and I want to continue to do it that way. Canon dSLRs have the 3 buttons required in a row across the back, covered neatly by the right thumb, and the layout is +/- universal - so you can upgrade, or change lineages and you'll still have those 3 buttons where you are used to having them...



    Here's the EOS-R...



    They've screwed with the 3 buttons. Why? They must have concluded they are not going to be selling EOS-R bodies to existing Canon dSLR users.

    I also toggle Servo focus with 'One-shot' focus with 3rd finger, right hand (button inside hand grip on front)...



    Officially it's the depth of field preview button, but I reassigned it to be the AF mode toggle. Again, I am so used to this, it is now second nature. I don't want to change cameras and lose all these ergonomics just in order to get rid of the mirror - which doesn't bother me in the slightest anyway.

    Another thing - battery life. I can get nearly 2000 shots out a battery charge. On my recent day photographing leaping salmon I took 1228 shots and had 30% charge left... and that was with an ancient battery... and with GPS switched on... and with chimp review switched on... No need to stop half way though to change batteries and maybe miss the shot of the day.

    I guess I will need to make the most of the next ten years...

    Col
    Can't offer any solutions on the button situation - one can only hope that there options for re-assignment that allow you customise to your taste.

    Battery life is the still the win for the DSLR, but with mirrorless the number of shots possible depends greatly on your shot discipline.
    My E-M5II is rated for 310 shoots, but I can easily get twice that or more, because I shoot in low-speed (5 fps) bursts seems to use similar power to shooting a single frame.
    And if you have auto review on and chimping of course that will impact. Personally I change battery during a lull once i see it heading towards the last quarter, which in turn means it acts as a last gasp option should the other battery/batteries get used up. Fortunately the battery capacities have increased greatly in the last couple of years and power management firmware is getting more effective and certainly cameras like the E-M1 MkIi and GH-5 can get to 1000+ shots particularly for sports type shooting. And then you can screw on a battery pack and double that or more.

    But then it is very early days for FF mirrorless and as many have noted the initial offerings do not even represent an advance on M43 operational specifications back in 2016. Suspect that C and N will wait now and see how the market reacts then push out something more serious when they see fit.
    Last edited by ps3737; 07-10-2018 at 08:03 AM. Reason: typo

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