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  1. #121

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmiddlepoint View Post
    Yes feeding is a major factor but there are lots of exceptions to this rule.
    In other words, it's a factor, but it's not a rule.

    No doubt if you examine carefully each individual river, you will uncover the reason why the proportion of sea-run to sedentary brown trout is as it is in that particular river. Some will be a case of: A-ha! We see now! (When the reason is found.)

    Then you have the more obvious ones, such as the big oligotrophic lochs of the north and west - spawning for tens of thousands; feeding for dozens. And in the classic past, those lochs were predominantly populated by sea-run fish.

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmiddlepoint View Post
    I'm sure static dry fly is underused on lochs for sea trout. The best bag I've seen on South Uist was ten fish to 2.5lb all on static daddies. I know you are a fan of dapping with daddies but on this day the static one worked wonders...
    Aye, well - there you go. We all need to keep an open mind about such things. The main reason I haven't bothered much with static dries for loch sea trout is just my own experiences (as such things will be for all of us). At times in the past when I have tried a team of hoppers for loch sea trout, I have been sitting, fishing them static and getting no interest, then given them a figure-of-eight and only then caught fish with them. Another time, fishing Fada in almost no breeze, my boat partner went with a static daddy and I went with the dap, and 100% of the offers we got were to the dap... and I'm always quite happy to fish the dap... and enjoy doing it! But certainly, after my experience this year with the daddy-hog, I will not hesitate to fish a dry for loch sea trout in a calm.

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    I always thought that the Test gave the lie to this but the keeper at Testwood told me that most of the sea trout turn left into the acidic streams rising in the New Forest so it all seems to stack up.
    Can I flag up a query about that one. As I understand it, the Hampshire Avon sea trout run up acid streams in the New Forest to spawn, but Test sea trout do indeed turn left up the River Blackwater, which enters the main river almost directly under the M27 between junctions 2 and 3. While the Blackwater certainly rises on the western edge of the New Forest and it isn't a chalkstream, in no way is it an acidic and nutrient poor river. The lower stretches are fished by the Test Valley coarse fishing club, and members seem to catch their share of roach, rudd, dace and chub along with a few wild browns and grayling.

    In the absence of any other theory maybe competition for food in the main stem of the lower reaches of chalkstreams drives the sea trout runs ? The lower Hampshire Avon is still well known for its coarse fishing, and the lower Test is almost a 2/3 size scale model of the Avon with good coarse fish present.

    For reference see John Levell's "Avon Diary 2018" blog and the TVAC Facebook page....

    Avon Diary 2018

    TEST VALLEY ANGLING CLUB public group | Facebook
    Last edited by JohnH; 26-11-2018 at 06:07 PM. Reason: added links
    "In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is bacteria." - German proverb
    JH based near Southampton

  4. #124

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
    ... competition for food...
    Good point ... just as much a factor as the productivity of the environment. We're talking about brown trout competing with candidate sea trout, and forgetting they are not the only fish (or other mouths needing fed) in some rivers.

    Col
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnH View Post
    Can I flag up a query about that one. As I understand it, the Hampshire Avon sea trout run up acid streams in the New Forest to spawn, but Test sea trout do indeed turn left up the River Blackwater, which enters the main river almost directly under the M27 between junctions 2 and 3. While the Blackwater certainly rises on the western edge of the New Forest and it isn't a chalkstream, in no way is it an acidic and nutrient poor river. The lower stretches are fished by the Test Valley coarse fishing club, and members seem to catch their share of roach, rudd, dace and chub along with a few wild browns and grayling.

    In the absence of any other theory maybe competition for food in the main stem of the lower reaches of chalkstreams drives the sea trout runs ? The lower Hampshire Avon is still well known for its coarse fishing, and the lower Test is almost a 2/3 size scale model of the Avon with good coarse fish present.
    I have often thought this. The lower reaches of the chalkstreams can hold huge numbers of dace and minnows which must compete for food with parr and smolt sized trout. I can only really speak of the Frome but it was very noticeable that there were very few good brown trout in the deeper lower reaches but plenty of sea trout.
    Maxima (or Drennan Sub Surface Green) forever

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    It is blowing a gale and lashing down with rain here today so to kill time some further waffle and conjecture on this. I'm not saying any of what I suggest is right or that anyone else is wrong, I'm just thinking out loud (in writing!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n Fishy View Post
    Then you have the more obvious ones, such as the big oligotrophic lochs of the north and west - spawning for tens of thousands; feeding for dozens. And in the classic past, those lochs were predominantly populated by sea-run fish.

    Col
    There are thousands of oligotrophic Scottish lochs with no easy access to the sea stuffed with tiddlers and no sea trout. So from that point of view there is no need to go to sea to have a sustainable population of trout in oligotrophic systems.
    I know there are cases where studies in some systems show most of the fish are sea run trout but I do wonder if it is as common as all that. Everywhere I have watched sea trout spawning (which I know isn't the same as everywhere sea trout spawn) over the last 25 years I have noticed that there are in fact as many ten inch hen browns spawning as 6lb hen sea trout. They tend to get overlooked because they are so small but if you look about up the smallest tribs or in the pea gravel at the sides of pools you will find them.
    So I wonder if in some cases the percentage going to sea isn't as high as rod catches and casual observation would at first indicate. Possibly the reason you get bigger runs from the classic nutrient poor systems is as you say down to massive spawning habitat compared to some richer systems. You might be getting the same percentage of sea trout/brown trout out of say the Conway as the Test it is just that the former has a much higher population of trout so you get a bigger run of sea trout in terms of pure numbers.

    As I say I've spent a lot of time watching fish on the redds from West Country moorland rivers and streams running out of the greensand hills of Devon to chalkstreams and more recently the little burns feeding the South Uist lochs and in all of these systems I would say I've seen as many small hen browns as mature hen sea trout.
    On one stream in Devon there is a pool where every year you could watch all sorts of trout spawn over the course of the winter. The pool was perfect because it has a low bridge giving perfect cover for the fish. In early November the big sea trout would turn up and cut the first redds in this pool. These would be fish in the 6 - 10lb class and were always assumed to be the early running ones. You would get one or two hens of this size on the pool tail and they would cut a redd the full width of the stream (about ten feet) and anything up to fifteen feet long with a pit getting 18" or more deep at the top end. About a week or two later the little browns would turn up and cut half a dozen or so redds on top of the big one. These would generally be followed by a class of smaller sea trout (1.5lb - 4lb) which would cut another two or three biggish redds and then later in December a few more small trout would turn up and overcut it again. If we were unlucky around Christmas a pair of salmon would turn up and make a right mess of it all but that was a rare event.

    So out of this overcut patch of gravel what hatched out? I have no idea but given that the sea trout here layed bigger eggs it would seem that they would out compete the fry of the smaller browns with smaller eggs/fry. Could this result in the brown trout fry being more likely to be pushed out and therefore run to sea while the "sea trout" fry being bigger could hold their own and stay at home? Might this interaction between the two strategies explain in some way the often observed but poorly understood cyclical runs of sea trout. I've seen it many times where the run of finnock (or herling, whitling, school peal) suddenly fails one year and the whole run slowly depletes over a five or six years and then all of a sudden from nowhere the finnock reappear and the run rebuilds over a few years.

    Are the fish in some systems that run to sea and then revert to being brown trout doing so simply to get big quickly so their offspring have a better chance. Once they have achieved a large but river/loch sustainable size they revert to staying in freshwater because it is safer than running to sea every year?



    As I say all waffle and conjecture and most of it might well be wrong in many places but it might have something in it somewhere if anyone can be bothered to read it!
    Maxima (or Drennan Sub Surface Green) forever

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    "Sea trout are an enigmatic miracle of nature" .... quote from Nick Fisher. Isn't it wonderful that there's something happening every year in Great Britain and Ireland and we have no idea how the process works ?
    "In wine there is wisdom. In beer there is strength. In water there is bacteria." - German proverb
    JH based near Southampton

  8. #128

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    Quote Originally Posted by bobmiddlepoint View Post
    There are thousands of oligotrophic Scottish lochs with no easy access to the sea stuffed with tiddlers and no sea trout. So from that point of view there is no need to go to sea to have a sustainable population of trout in oligotrophic systems.
    I certainly wasn't trying to say there was. The very fact there are thousands of oligotrophic lochs stuffed with tiddlers shows that having loads of spawning with very little feeding is a perfectly viable way to survive. All you are doing is adjusting your survival strategy by aiming towards the base of the pyramid of numbers...



    So, you are going more for being a bleak than a pike.

    Pike are brilliant strategists. They can fill the bleak level with pikelets, the perch level with jacks and the top level with big hens - each eating the ones at the level below themselves. So, they don't need any other species above the shrimp level.
    Please note that any views expressed in this post may be those of the
    originator and do not necessarily reflect those of the reader.

  9. #129

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    I wonder, do river-stocked triploid browns go to sea and become sea trout, obviously never to return?

    My river here used to be stocked annually, but pickings are often slim now, though we do get a few sea trout coming up.
    Perhaps our stocked fish went all marine on us?

    A couple of months back, a lad up river from me, on the Ure, by Richmond, posed the question as to where members reckoned his fishery's stocked fish disappeared to in winter, as they had been left with very few, despite almost none retained.
    Perhaps that is the answer, they just head to sea like the wild ones?

  10. #130

    Default Re: Sea Trout Staying As Brown Trout!

    It's more likely that they'll all dead after a year. Being hatchery bred they're ill prepared for survival in the wild and dynamic environment of a river.
    Musha rig um du rum da

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