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  1. #21
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by williegunn View Post
    Countryfile BBC1 6:30 tonight are discussing FAC medical fees.
    Along with other things, not my favourite programme very townie!
    Was an interesting watch.
    Including the quotes from the guidance notes, one in particular made me smile.
    Went along the lines of if no medical report was forthcoming, you could actually still get the certificates (to own weapons) anyway!
    And yes, I agree with previous posts about the countersigning situation, used to be a prerequisite about professional persons, now it just has to be some one whom has known you for several years.

    regards
    bert

  2. #22
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by aenoon View Post
    Was an interesting watch.
    Including the quotes from the guidance notes, one in particular made me smile.
    Went along the lines of if no medical report was forthcoming, you could actually still get the certificates (to own weapons) anyway!
    And yes, I agree with previous posts about the countersigning situation, used to be a prerequisite about professional persons, now it just has to be some one whom has known you for several years.

    regards
    bert
    They interestingly failed to mention that there were problems with GPs refusing to sign on the grounds that they objected to gun ownership, I wonder how Lincolnshire would deal with that?

    I think the problem with the previous regime of a "professional" person was that not many knew such a person well enough to vouch for them post-Dunblane etc. I'm lucky, I've got two JPs, plus a shooting Chartered Accountant, Headteacher and High Sheriff amongst my friends.
    “There is no more lovely country than Monmouthshire in early spring. Nowhere do the larks sing quite so passionately, as if somehow inspired by the Welsh themselves. There is a blackbird on every thorn and a cock chaffinch, a twink as they call him there, on every bush...... It moved me profoundly. I had been spared to see another spring, and I thank God for it.”

    Oliver Kite
    “A Spring Day on the Usk”
    A Fisherman’s Diary

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    East Lancs
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    234

    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    It is my understanding (In England) that if your doctor does not reply then there are no medical grounds for the Firearms Office to not proceed with your application. I have a co-terminous and have never been asked by Lancashire (Who I was originally with) or GMP who I have recently transferred to for a doctor's report.
    I am also of the belief (But I could be wrong here) that BASC have stated DO NOT PAY!
    This thread from The Stalking Directory might be of help to anyone involved in this situation:
    https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co....-my-licience!!
    Another thing which might well be of interest ius the Countryfile report from last night You can watch it on BBC IPlayer, here is the link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-ribble-valley
    To see how the HOGL have "cocke3d this up" listen very carefully from 27:00 onward where they clearly contradict themselves and then say that if the GP doesn't give a report then the Renewal/application should continue anyway!
    Last edited by frenchieboy; 08-01-2018 at 07:58 AM.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    mid wales
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    1,680

    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    I think (especially in areas that take the Lincolnshire stance) it will have to go to an appeal court for a decision. Hopefully someone like BASC will fund/run such a case.
    If you get stopped on suspicion of drink/drive, the onus is on the Police to prove that you were driving and that you were above the legal limit.
    In the same vein, if they refuse an application on the medical grounds card then they will have to prove it. Hence my bet that it will take a stated case to resolve this one I suspect.
    We used to have village idiots but with the advent of the internet, they've gone global.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by sewinbasher View Post
    I think standardisation in the way that, in particular FAC, renewals are dealt with is absolutely necessary. Too much is at the whim of individual Chief Constables that results in hugely varying outcomes of interpreting the same law. How can it be that in one police region someone can get a number of rifles with AOLQ and where in another region that person is required to have DSC1, quarry species are limited and new FAC holders are required to have a mentor.

    I'm not arguing about which is the right approach (if either) but my point is that it's the same law, and there's actually no requirement in the law for qualifications or mentoring. There are restrictions on minimum calibres for some species of deer and a Home Office guidance the minimum calibre for boar and wild goat should be .270. People have actually moved house to get into a less restricted police region. There's a clear case for centralisation of that process.

    I'm lucky to live in the region controlled by the North Wales Constabulary and when I said to the FLO that it was stupid that when out deer stalking with my .243 I could shoot a fox but if I was carrying my .270 I could not, he agreed and gave me AOLQ on both.

    For those who may be unfamiliar with it AOLQ means Any Other Legal Quarry i.e. anything legally on the quarry list and in season may be shot, obviously with the landowner's permission.
    I couldn't agree more. Maybe three years or so after I was granted my first FAC it became apparent that I needed an open ticket. At that time I was in the process of moving to a different county. I asked South Yorkshire what their requirements were to be told it was two letters from existing FAC holders that stated I was a safe and competent shot. Slightly ironic I thought because if I wasn't why would I have a ticket in the first place?

    I then called Derbyshire as I thought it could wait a few weeks. They wanted evidence to show I'd put 1500 rounds through each weapon. I explained I was a deer stalker and not a target shooter and that stalkers don't tend use anywhere near that amount of amo. They wouldn't budge...

    I got a couple of mates to write letters, got my ticket opened up and moved. Upon inspection the FEO basically said, South Yorkshire will have granted you these permissions for a reason so I'll keep it the same. Upon subsequent renewals they've never questioned it. I don't expect them too. I'm told our friends in Scotland are regularly granted open tickets from day one.

    The merits of DMQ could cover a lengthy thread on their own. I'm Level 2 now and whilst I fully understand the opposition for Level 1 being a requirement for the conditioning of deer, it does seem to carry some weight with firearms departments, rightly or wrongly.

    Anyway, my FAC, SGC and European Firearms Pass all arrived today. My .243 and .30-06 have been conditioned for deer and AOLQ. My .22LR conditioned for vermin / fox / ground game and AOLQ. Nice and sensible IMHO and to be brutally honest it's nice that I can forget all about it for the next five years.

    Incidentally, I mentioned that I wanted AOLQ incase I choose to hunt feral goat or boar. My FEO had no idea about goat and his colleague who accompanied him as he's shortly taking over his patch had no idea about both of these being legit quarry species. He didn't even know there were wild boar in the UK!

  6. #26
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    May 2006
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    Gods own county - Derbyshire
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by williegunn View Post
    When the air rifle legalisation came in in Scotland I read the advice and thought I needed to get an air rifle licence to tied me over till I did my renewal.

    I duly filled in the forms got a referee to sign the form, different from the shotgun and FAC, sent it off to Glasgow with a cheque.

    A couple of weeks later, Glasgow Air rifle department phone me up and say I don’t need a licence just to add it on renewal. I naturally asked for that in writing and duly received the letter, return of forms and cheque.

    When doing the paperwork for renewal I mentioned the air rifle, there was a pause, then “you mean your unlicensed air rifle?”

    I then explained the situation and showed the F.A officer the letter, he said no no no Glasgow have it all wrong. The Aberdeenshire Chief Constable read it the same way as I did. But speaking with a friend in Inverness, Highland next door, agree with Glasgow ! Shambles.
    It's clearly causing a lot of confusion. On the run up to the indy ref, I read a list of areas where the Scottish parliament wanted additional powers. Firearms legislation was one such area. I paid attention as I use mine up there regularly so could be affected.

    Then I saw the horrific incident with the two year old toddler and the subsequent proposal for licencing air guns. I've since been told by two people in Scotland that I'm allowed to bring my full bore rifles and shotguns across the border but not my 25 year old Webley Tracker .22 air rifle. This seemed a little bit silly to me, but I think now that any FAG or SGC holder from England or Wales granted a ticket which expires on or after dec 31st 2016 can now use one in Scotland without an air rifle license.

    I hope it's introduction and subsequent cost doesn't deter too many youngsters from taking up shooting related country sports.

  7. #27
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    North East Wales
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MobyJones View Post
    I couldn't agree more. Maybe three years or so after I was granted my first FAC it became apparent that I needed an open ticket. At that time I was in the process of moving to a different county. I asked South Yorkshire what their requirements were to be told it was two letters from existing FAC holders that stated I was a safe and competent shot. Slightly ironic I thought because if I wasn't why would I have a ticket in the first place?

    I then called Derbyshire as I thought it could wait a few weeks. They wanted evidence to show I'd put 1500 rounds through each weapon. I explained I was a deer stalker and not a target shooter and that stalkers don't tend use anywhere near that amount of amo. They wouldn't budge...

    I got a couple of mates to write letters, got my ticket opened up and moved. Upon inspection the FEO basically said, South Yorkshire will have granted you these permissions for a reason so I'll keep it the same. Upon subsequent renewals they've never questioned it. I don't expect them too. I'm told our friends in Scotland are regularly granted open tickets from day one.

    The merits of DMQ could cover a lengthy thread on their own. I'm Level 2 now and whilst I fully understand the opposition for Level 1 being a requirement for the conditioning of deer, it does seem to carry some weight with firearms departments, rightly or wrongly.

    Anyway, my FAC, SGC and European Firearms Pass all arrived today. My .243 and .30-06 have been conditioned for deer and AOLQ. My .22LR conditioned for vermin / fox / ground game and AOLQ. Nice and sensible IMHO and to be brutally honest it's nice that I can forget all about it for the next five years.

    Incidentally, I mentioned that I wanted AOLQ incase I choose to hunt feral goat or boar. My FEO had no idea about goat and his colleague who accompanied him as he's shortly taking over his patch had no idea about both of these being legit quarry species. He didn't even know there were wild boar in the UK!
    It's probably a step too far but a policeman friend of mine in Scotland had a great idea. This was to issue a credit card sized FAC with all the information on a barcode, QR or magnetic strip. Nothing very new there but his extended idea was that, instead of specific calibres, "slots" would be for groups of similar calibres such as ".222 centre fire" and allowing the FAC holder to buy any of the variations i.e. .222, .223. .22-250 etc and the same for the larger calibres. You'd probably be able to cover virtually any calibre for UK quarry with three general slots. If you wanted a .308 and a .30-06 you'd ask for two slots in that group.

    The extension of this would be that you could go into a firearms dealer and trade your .222 for a .22-250 over the counter, the dealer would enter the serial numbers of both rifles, swipe/read your FAC card that would automatically update the firearms registry, deleting the .222, opening the slot, and registering the new rifle all in one swipe of the card, and without the need for a variation.

    Good idea...and therefore unlikely to happen!
    “There is no more lovely country than Monmouthshire in early spring. Nowhere do the larks sing quite so passionately, as if somehow inspired by the Welsh themselves. There is a blackbird on every thorn and a cock chaffinch, a twink as they call him there, on every bush...... It moved me profoundly. I had been spared to see another spring, and I thank God for it.”

    Oliver Kite
    “A Spring Day on the Usk”
    A Fisherman’s Diary

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Worcestershire
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    1,272

    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by sewinbasher View Post
    It's probably a step too far but a policeman friend of mine in Scotland had a great idea. This was to issue a credit card sized FAC with all the information on a barcode, QR or magnetic strip. Nothing very new there but his extended idea was that, instead of specific calibres, "slots" would be for groups of similar calibres such as ".222 centre fire" and allowing the FAC holder to buy any of the variations i.e. .222, .223. .22-250 etc and the same for the larger calibres. You'd probably be able to cover virtually any calibre for UK quarry with three general slots. If you wanted a .308 and a .30-06 you'd ask for two slots in that group.



    The extension of this would be that you could go into a firearms dealer and trade your .222 for a .22-250 over the counter, the dealer would enter the serial numbers of both rifles, swipe/read your FAC card that would automatically update the firearms registry, deleting the .222, opening the slot, and registering the new rifle all in one swipe of the card, and without the need for a variation.



    Good idea...and therefore unlikely to happen!


    With savings on manhours for postage, data entry, return postage of paperwork, firearms officer visits.

    That is a major efficiency saving across a service stretched for cash and officer time.

    Not a chance in hell of that happening


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  9. #29
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    May 2006
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    Gods own county - Derbyshire
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by sewinbasher View Post
    They interestingly failed to mention that there were problems with GPs refusing to sign on the grounds that they objected to gun ownership, I wonder how Lincolnshire would deal with that?
    Well I can now confirm that I'm in possession of mine without my GP supplying my medical records to the police. A situation I thoroughly disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchieboy View Post
    It is my understanding (In England) that if your doctor does not reply then there are no medical grounds for the Firearms Office to not proceed with your application. I have a co-terminous and have never been asked by Lancashire (Who I was originally with) or GMP who I have recently transferred to for a doctor's report.
    I am also of the belief (But I could be wrong here) that BASC have stated DO NOT PAY!
    This thread from The Stalking Directory might be of help to anyone involved in this situation:
    https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co....-my-licience!!
    Another thing which might well be of interest ius the Countryfile report from last night You can watch it on BBC IPlayer, here is the link:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-ribble-valley
    To see how the HOGL have "cocke3d this up" listen very carefully from 27:00 onward where they clearly contradict themselves and then say that if the GP doesn't give a report then the Renewal/application should continue anyway!
    Thanks to Willie Gun for posting the original link. I found the piece interesting.

    The guys on the SD are understandably concerned with cost. That said the taxpayer subsidizes the cost of these, so it's not unreasonable to pay more if required.

    Back to the original topic...

    If we take three steps back, we all agree that US gun laws are too lax. There is a loophole in US gun law where an individual could purchase an assault rifle at a gun show WITHOUT any background checks. The only legal obligation of the seller was to ask "Are you insane", to which an insane person would presumably say "no" and purchase his AR15 or similar.

    Whilst that's not a very good check on an individuals suitability, to say the least! It's still a check in regards to someones mental health. To be issuing tickets without medical checks is insane IMHO.

    I fully respect the GP's right to refuse based on their own ethics, after all they signed up to provide medical treatment to people, not to get involved in gun law politics which they may have no interest in, but some alternative solution needs to be implemented. The last thing the UK gun owning community, and everyone else for that matter is an unsuitable person being armed.

    I'm half tempted to write to my MP and see what he has to say.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: FAC SGC renewal and NHS cutbacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MobyJones View Post
    Well I can now confirm that I'm in possession of mine without my GP supplying my medical records to the police. A situation I thoroughly disagree with.



    Thanks to Willie Gun for posting the original link. I found the piece interesting.

    The guys on the SD are understandably concerned with cost. That said the taxpayer subsidizes the cost of these, so it's not unreasonable to pay more if required.

    Back to the original topic...

    If we take three steps back, we all agree that US gun laws are too lax. There is a loophole in US gun law where an individual could purchase an assault rifle at a gun show WITHOUT any background checks. The only legal obligation of the seller was to ask "Are you insane", to which an insane person would presumably say "no" and purchase his AR15 or similar.

    Whilst that's not a very good check on an individuals suitability, to say the least! It's still a check in regards to someones mental health. To be issuing tickets without medical checks is insane IMHO.

    I fully respect the GP's right to refuse based on their own ethics, after all they signed up to provide medical treatment to people, not to get involved in gun law politics which they may have no interest in, but some alternative solution needs to be implemented. The last thing the UK gun owning community, and everyone else for that matter is an unsuitable person being armed.

    I'm half tempted to write to my MP and see what he has to say.
    I agree that there should be some medical input but the whole thing is full of holes, to raise a few issues:

    1) If I haven't seen my GP for some time, maybe years, how on earth can they give a reasonable opinion on my mental health?

    2) If the answer is that an appointment is needed is the average GP qualified to assess mental health relative to gun ownership?

    3) If I've had a FAC for a number of years but my GP changes to one that is ethically against gun ownership there must be a "fall back" or Plan B where another medical professional can supply the paperwork. You can't have a situation where you can't get the FAC renewed because of GP ethics any more than you should get one without medical input.

    The theory is laudable but the outworking is not so clear, you could imagine a situation where someone runs amok with a gun, an inquiry is held, his GP had signed him off as mentally sound but is subsequently found not to have seen him for x years or was not competent to diagnose certain mental conditions.
    “There is no more lovely country than Monmouthshire in early spring. Nowhere do the larks sing quite so passionately, as if somehow inspired by the Welsh themselves. There is a blackbird on every thorn and a cock chaffinch, a twink as they call him there, on every bush...... It moved me profoundly. I had been spared to see another spring, and I thank God for it.”

    Oliver Kite
    “A Spring Day on the Usk”
    A Fisherman’s Diary

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