5 Weight shootout by Yellowstone Angler;

arawa

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Not sure about value but certainly they interest me - much like a review of some top end car I have no intention of ever buying.
But as it happens, 2 of the last 3 rods I bought were a direct result of a Yellowstone test and I am very happy with both.
 

Uncas

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Those figures came from an accurate, US government source so I assume they are right. Also most Americans earning $75000 probably get their family health care paid for them by their employers.

It is up to the individual what rod they buy and like, but it is notable from the shootout that rods costing $300 often come out scoring higher than rods costing 2x or even 3x that. Me, I've been designing and building my own rods in lock down, so looking forward to getting back fishing to try them out.
Excuse me for asking but how much are you spending designing your own rods compared with the outlay of company's like Loomis & Sage using the highest tech carbon weaves computer graphics etc.
or are you just buying a Harrison blank and making your rod up.
 

kingf000

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It's not 'designing' though is it? It's 'choosing' and 'assembling'.
Depends what design means to you. Yes I buy off the shelf blanks and I look around for one made with the material and action that I want. I then select the grip and and either buy or 'design and make' my own reel seat, again to the weight and specification I want. I then make most of my own guides based upon my own design and select a whipping thread. One definition of design is "the general arrangement or layout of a product". That could well include 'choosing and assembling' to put together the design of a rod that you want that isn't commercially available. No different from designing a house using commercially available materials, but putting those materials together in a way that you want.
 

dave b

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General arrangement in engineering terms is the drawing that controls the configuration of the product however the design is still the original product, in this case the blank, everything else hangs off it and can be modified or in this case customised to suit.

In summary if the blank is a Sage, it's still a Sage however you've customised it to suit your requirements.
 

kingf000

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General arrangement in engineering terms is the drawing that controls the configuration of the product however the design is still the original product, in this case the blank, everything else hangs off it and can be modified or in this case customised to suit.
Isn't this just being down right picky? Using my designing a house analogy, the designer would specify the the number and layout of the rooms and what the house is built from. So are you saying that a designer who chooses and assembles the house out of commercially available materials is not a designer? So a designer would need to use bricks, doors, windows etc. that were custom made only for that house to the designers specification, preferably made by the designer him(her)self?

I believe I've designed my rods that are configured differently from anything else out there and because I haven't just used a kit supplied with the blank. You can believe whatever you like.
 

PaulD

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Isn't this just being down right picky?

I believe I've designed my rods that are configured differently
I fear you are misinterpreting the word 'design'. With your house analogy, the designer has been engaged to create something new, something that presently does not exist that satisfies the specific and particular needs of the customer. The house that the customer wants does not already exist. The designer takes base materials and engineers and constructs something new. He does not take an exiting property, maybe move a couple of walls, redecorate it and suggest it a 'new design'.

Your product is a fly rod, the function of which is to cast a fly line which is achieved by the design and construction of its blank. Like you I make rods. I assemble the corks for the handle, I glue them to the blank and turn them on a lathe . . . I shape, make the handle to my own requirements. I choose the rings and thread and the style of whipping to decorate the rod the way I like it. It is a rod assembled by me, for me.
 

kingf000

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I seem to have touched a nerve with some people who want to preserve the term 'rod designer' in its most narrow sense to someone who designs blanks. Me - I have a broader definition which is also shared by others:
This says nothing about designing your own blank.
Also Paul Arden calls himself a rod designer, but what he has done is to work with a Spanish friend who designs and makes blanks, then he makes up the rods and tests them, gives feedback so the blank designer alters the design.
So maybe we have two things here - the blank designer and the rod designer. They may be one and the same person, or within the larger rod manufactures, they may well be done by different people.
 

tangled

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I think adding fittings to a rod blank is nearer to customising than designing. Most people would expect the rod blank to be the thing that is critical to a rod design. The rest is pretty much cosmetic (so long as you know where to put rings and which end to attach the handle).

Sounds like satisfying work though.
 

dave b

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You can't just design a blank, you have to add fittings to ensure that when assembled it has the correct action and behaves in the manner it was designed to. If it's not correct, i.e. too stiff in the butt, middle or tip, you tweak the mandrel or layup accordingly, reassemble it and re-test it until you are happy with the end product. This is where consultants earn their keep working hand in hand with the contracting company/manufacturer. Once everybody is happy with the end product, it is mass produced normally in a rod form and the design is complete.

Some manufacturers such as Loop, Sage, Orvis and Maxia not to mention a number of Chinese rod manufacturers will sell on blanks so custom rod makers can make the rods to their specification adding whatever fittings they find most appealing to compliment the attributes of the blank.

In summary the manufacturer in conjunction with the contracting company and their consultants design the rod. When you buy the blank you are buying a designed product and customising or modifying it to suit your individual requirements noting that the original design will be protected by interlectual property rights held by the manufacturer/contracting company. By selling you the blank they grant you licence to customise their product to your requirements.
 

kingf000

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I think adding fittings to a rod blank is nearer to customising than designing. Most people would expect the rod blank to be the thing that is critical to a rod design. The rest is pretty much cosmetic (so long as you know where to put rings and which end to attach the handle).

Sounds like satisfying work though.
Depends. My rods have a totally different design, or 'customising' as you call it in that, although they are relatively cheap blanks, they have the lightest rings that I can make, lighter than any you can buy, and a very light handle and reel seat. There has been quite a lot of thought and mathematical modelling put into this. The result is that I have made rods that are very light, lighter than any equivalent rods on the market, with a fairly high balance point without the reel, but can be balanced at the grip with a light reel, thus making the whole set up very light. I think that is sufficiently different for it to be labelled as a re-designed rod profile.
 

kingf000

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You can't just design a blank, you have to add fittings to ensure that when assembled it has the correct action and behaves in the manner it was designed to. If it's not correct, i.e. too stiff in the butt, middle or tip, you tweak the mandrel or layup accordingly, reassemble it and re-test it until you are happy with the end product. This is where consultants earn their keep working hand in hand with the contracting company/manufacturer. Once everybody is happy with the end product, it is mass produced normally in a rod form and the design is complete.

Some manufacturers such as Loop, Sage, Orvis and Maxia not to mention a number of Chinese rod manufacturers will sell on blanks so custom rod makers can make the rods to their specification adding whatever fittings they find most appealing to compliment the attributes of the blank.

In summary the manufacturer in conjunction with the contracting company and their consultants design the rod. When you buy the blank you are buying a designed product and customising or modifying it to suit your individual requirements noting that the original design will be protected by interlectual property rights held by the manufacturer/contracting company. By selling you the blank they grant you licence to customise their product to your requirements.
As the blank is protected by IP, I think you are mixing up invention with design. For the blank to be covered by IP, by definition it has to be inventive. A simple re-design would not qualify for IP. I've over 100 patents to my name so feel qualified to comment.
 

boisker

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.
Also Paul Arden calls himself a rod designer, but what he has done is to work with a Spanish friend who designs and makes blanks, then he makes up the rods and tests them, gives feedback so the blank designer alters the design.
So maybe we have two things here - the blank designer and the rod designer. They may be one and the same person, or within the larger rod manufactures, they may well be done by different people.
paul works in conjunction with a blank designer/maker to develop a blank with a taper that delivers the rod characteristics he is looking for.... this can involve numerous blanks with subtle changes in profile until the characteristics are achieved... this process has taken a number of years for some rods weights / lengths in the sexyloops range...
is this what you are doing, are you developing a blank to a specific taper or are you buying an off the peg blank?
the former is rod designing
the latter is customising a rod blank
 

kingf000

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This is thread is getting anal! Let us agree to differ and worry about the more important things going on at the moment. No one is going to die over this.
 

dave b

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As soon as a company put their brand/trademark on a product it is protected by IPR. Patents are only one of the items covered under IPR.

Agree the thread is getting tedious we'd be better off on the bank
 

kingf000

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As soon as a company put their brand/trademark on a product it is protected by IPR. Patents are only one of the items covered under IPR.

Agree the thread is getting tedious we'd be better off on the bank
Sorry, earlier IP on blanks was mentioned, ie a patent for which there needs to be an inventive step. IPR encompasses that and registered design. According to what you say, it is the latter that the company gets, which covers the shape, packaging, patterns, colours and decoration so no one can make and sell something that looks like it. For a patent on a blank, I would have thought that it probably needs to incorporate something novel eg. a new filler, resin, mesh or method of production.

An afterthought - so simply changing the colour of the whipping thread could now become a registered DESIGN - so back to square 1 with the argument.
 
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dave b

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The mandrel and it's design will be covered by IPR. If you copy the design and manufacture a blank and it's the same in form, it's an infringement of the IPR. The design is the production of the blank, everything else hangs off the initial design. If you buy the blank the manufacturer is giving you license to customise it.

You are modifying an existing design it's as simple as that.

If you want to apply a little artistic latitude you could say I'm designing a nymph rod based on a Sage ESN blank. It is and always be a Sage designed blank but it will be your nymph rod built to your specification but giving the manufacturer the credit for the blank they designed.
 

kingf000

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The mandrel and it's design will be covered by IPR. If you copy the design and manufacture a blank and it's the same in form, it's an infringement of the IPR. The design is the production of the blank, everything else hangs off the initial design. If you buy the blank the manufacturer is giving you license to customise it.

You are modifying an existing design it's as simple as that.

If you want to apply a little artistic latitude you could say I'm designing a nymph rod based on a Sage ESN blank. It is and always be a Sage designed blank but it will be your nymph rod built to your specification but giving the manufacturer the credit for the blank they designed.
That is what I've always done on this forum, said exactly what blank I've used. However, I feel a bit peeved that I can't say I've designed the rod when I've put a lot of effort into looking at how fly rods are used for different forms of fly fishing. From that, I've derived a mathematical model that tells me the optimum weight distribution for any particular blank to give me the lightest possible configuration. This weight distribution is nothing like you find on any commercial rods. The action of the rod is determined by the action of the blank, give or take a bit due to whipping etc. However, some of how the rod feels is down to the weight distribution. I believe I have made rods that cost relatively little, but have the feel of a much more expensive rod. I only need the opportunity to test them on the water.
 

easker1

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Must be cabin fever setting in, I make my own rods (or Build from Various components)I have used 2nd hand bits from other rods, all I do is make sure the rod is suitable for the line weight ,I can make my own reel seat inserts, but I like to recycle were ever possible, only ever had one rod back , it was on Cabelas blanks , it had a broken section, but I had a spare, Cabelas blanks seem prone to this,easker1
 
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