Achieving a crisp stop

Tangled

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A fly rod is a flexible (3rd class) lever. Fly rods as springs is not a useful fallacy.

Already suffering poster's remorse for saying that.....again.:) 😬

Cheers
Mark
The spring thing is easily dealt with. As is the load thing. They're both non-issues and it's surprising to me they were ever issues at all; they're easily proven wrong by anybody in their own back yards.

The most controversial thing you haven't answered and it's the subject of the thread - the "crisp stop". Why do you think it's "part of the fallacy"?
 
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ohanzee

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Catapult cast, rod hand does not move, entirely a straightening of the bent rod.

That is about the extent of any spring contribution, the wider point is that mentioning it tends to divert focus away from the useful stuff.
 

ohanzee

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The most controversial thing you haven't answered and it's the subject of the thread - the "crisp stop". Why do you think it's "part of the fallacy"?

I'd say a 'crisp stop' is a useful concept if someone is not handling the rod precisely, knowing where to stop the rod tip to direct and start the loop rolling is in there also, and best done with a clean positive movement, it's just a stage in learning how to form a loop.

But like everything in casting it is a stage, once understood you then discover there are lots of ways to decelerate the rod tip to form a loop, in my experience playing around with those can help embed the simplest crisp stop.
 

andrewparkeruk

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Another approach may be to demonstrate a "fly first" or "fly only" cast (i.e. where the fly, or fluff, lands before any part of the later or flyline) and say "copy that", rather than go on about stops

Paul Gaskell's "triangle of awesome" fishing style, derived from Tenkara

Edited: to include MEDIA tags
 
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PaulD

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The most controversial thing you haven't answered and it's the subject of the thread - the "crisp stop". Why do you think it's "part of the fallacy"?
We need to go back to Andy Grey's post (#25) on page two and consider the language we use and the 'image' we are trying to create within the caster's mind. When instructing new fly casters many are rod wavers, wafters and throwers, commonly having little appreciation or understanding of the importance of the 'stop' and how it's abruptness is fundamental to performance. Andy's suggestion that we should focus the mind on the 'habit' of stopping the hand is a good one. 'Pantomiming' the casting stroke, using just the rod butt, without reel and line, is a useful exercise to demonstrate where and how the hand should stop.
 

Tangled

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We need to go back to Andy Grey's post (#25) on page two and consider the language we use and the 'image' we are trying to create within the caster's mind. When instructing new fly casters many are rod wavers, wafters and throwers, commonly having little appreciation or understanding of the importance of the 'stop' and how it's abruptness is fundamental to performance. Andy's suggestion that we should focus the mind on the 'habit' of stopping the hand is a good one. 'Pantomiming' the casting stroke, using just the rod butt, without reel and line, is a useful exercise to demonstrate where and how the hand should stop.
Of course, but that's just teaching how to stop the rod to form the loop.
The question was why is geenomad calling the stop a fallacy?
 

geenomad

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For those who want to discuss the stop may I suggest we do it in another thread and not meander around adding more confusion.

I predict that not everyone will agree on the importance of the stop and how abrupt it actually needs to be and why. Happy to go nerdy but just not in a thread that was supposed to help someone who is really trying to get going and not to master all the mysteries revealed a bit further down the road.

Cheers
Mark
 
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PaulD

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The question was why is geenomad calling the stop a fallacy?
Have a look at this. the 'Italian Fly Casting Method' . . .


. . . no mention of the 'stop'. In fact, the language used in the promo video would appear to ignore / discount the 'Five Principles' we know, love and the language we commonly use to discuss casting. From a personal perspective, I think it's 'pants', but each to his own!
 

4wings

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Regular exercise will build strength in the wrists. squeezing a soft ball or this; I assume most of you look like this. :)
 

weiliwen

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So now that it's been raised, it needs to be explained....

When we move the rod forward or backwards pulling the line, the rod bends because we're applying force to it ie loading it. 'Load' is another trigger word here. The word 'load' is accurate; it just means applying a force but it's a 'loaded' term here because people jump to the conclusion that you mean it like loading a spring, which isn't how the rod works.

When we stop the cast the rod straightens causing the spring effect. But the major use of the rod is as a lever not a spring. The spring effect is small but it is useful, not least because it gives the casting action some feel and protects our joints from shocks.

Sorry.
Maybe you, but for me, the spring adds far more distance than a 9' broomstick would. It's the primary driver when I cast. It's why I can cast 40 feet with a 6 1/2' rod.
 

ohanzee

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Of course, but that's just teaching how to stop the rod to form the loop.
The question was why is geenomad calling the stop a fallacy?

I can see both sides of it, if someone particularly needs to crispen up the stop then it can be confusing to add other suggestions, but I know from seeing it and doing it that habits formed can become very ingrained and hard to readapt, one of the cruelest learning curves in casting rebuilding your stroke, the arm tries to do what it knows works while the brain says 'you have to stop doing that to do it better'.

I might try to explain that better after I salvage my dinner from infero.
 

Paul_B

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practice the stop with one of these

1638387519124.png
 

ohanzee

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Another approach may be to demonstrate a "fly first" or "fly only" cast (i.e. where the fly, or fluff, lands before any part of the later or flyline) and say "copy that", rather than go on about stops

Paul Gaskell's "triangle of awesome" fishing style, derived from Tenkara

Edited: to include MEDIA tags

I think I get it, if you ask someone to cast to a target, they focus on the target, and after a few goes, in order to hit the target, they stop where they need to.
 

Bobfly2

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One of the many very well made trout fishing videos producers is jensenflyfishing.com who have an excellent YouTube series, divided between the USA and New Zealand. This is real fishing where you can watch good anglers in action on a wide range of rivers for difficult fish. Entertaining and also instructive and you can pretty much forget about a "crisp stop" and instead watch how a fly is delivered gently.
 

AlanWxm

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Agreed Rich. My instinct was to "tell the truth" and say that the crisp stop is taught as a way of getting folks not to keep going, over rotate and produce another ineffectual rainbow. SLPs work.

The crisp stop is also part of the rod loading/spring mythology/nonsense but damned if I'm going there again. :)

Hope the OP isn't confused by any of that.

Cheers
Mark
Well yes I was a bit shocked when I caught up with the latest posts. However they do tie in with what have found while trying to incorporate a crisp stop into my casting over the last couple of weeks I.e. that while the stop (and not casting in a wide arc) is essential on the backcast (and forward cast if false catching) it has little effect on the end result on the final forward cast.
 

andrewparkeruk

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Well yes I was a bit shocked when I caught up with the latest posts. However they do tie in with what have found while trying to incorporate a crisp stop into my casting over the last couple of weeks I.e. that while the stop (and not casting in a wide arc) is essential on the backcast (and forward cast if false catching) it has little effect on the end result on the final forward cast.
… depends whether you want the fly or the line to land first, so it may be significant in fishing, if not in dick swinging :)
 

karlsson

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Maybe you, but for me, the spring adds far more distance than a 9' broomstick would. It's the primary driver when I cast. It's why I can cast 40 feet with a 6 1/2' rod.
If you're only getting 40 feet with a 6'6" rod, may I suggest some practice? Spring component only accounts for roughly 20% in an unhauled cast, much less if you haul..


Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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… depends whether you want the fly or the line to land first, so it may be significant in fishing, if not in dick swinging :)

Is it possible to get the fly to land first? the closest I have managed is landing fly and leader at the same time.
 
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