Autumn Nations Cup

PaulD

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I wish Eddie Jones would keep his big mouth shut before these games.

His comments about Irish 'imports' were both hypocritical and embarrassing.

My wife is Irish. With Jones at the helm and with Farrell's inability to think on his feet, let alone string a sentence together, I wouldn't have minded if Ireland had won.

Or Ben Spencer, but try telling Eddie.

What? Eddie isn't listening to you? He can't select our best scrum half? He talks too much and winds you up! What does the man know . . . 54 tests, 44 wins . . . 81% success . . . our most successful coach. Think yourself lucky your not Scottish, Welsh or even Irish, four World Cup Finals . . . even Eddie took us to one!
 

green man

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I’m not saying I partic like him, but he’s incredibly successful....

Can't disagree. I should probably re-phrase what I meant... not very good at thinking on his feet, 'when things are not going his team's way'. But then that didn't happen much with Sarries. I guess I'm living in the past with England - hoping for 2000-2003 all over again.
 

PaulD

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Our most successful coach? I take it you're too young to remember 2003. 👶 Success is winning the big one, not coming second. And on that, I actually think Eddie would agree.

I think consistency is a key measure . . . longest winning run etc. Clive Woodward winning percentage 71%. Listen to what the players say about Eddie.
 

delray

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I was never a fan of Woodward (it's come up on here before); right place, right time, right mates and I seem to remember (my bias may be clouding my memory here) a very average at best club coaching career. The Lions? Selection cock-ups? Can't remember and can't be bothered to look it up.
The team of 01, 02 and 03 scarcely needed coaching, BUT he did it and brought home the big one, hence he remains our most successful coach but I always felt with that squad, losing any game was unlikely but of course it happened and happens... NZ/Argentina.
Paul, are you saying the players are 100pct behind Jones? I can't see any with International ambitions being critical, I don't think he takes it well......
Anyway, interesting subject for me but somewhat away from the thread title, apologies.
 

mrnotherone

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I was never a fan of Woodward (it's come up on here before); right place, right time, right mates and I seem to remember (my bias may be clouding my memory here) a very average at best club coaching career. The Lions? Selection cock-ups? Can't remember and can't be bothered to look it up.
The team of 01, 02 and 03 scarcely needed coaching, BUT he did it and brought home the big one, hence he remains our most successful coach but I always felt with that squad, losing any game was unlikely but of course it happened and happens... NZ/Argentina.
Paul, are you saying the players are 100pct behind Jones? I can't see any with International ambitions being critical, I don't think he takes it well......
Anyway, interesting subject for me but somewhat away from the thread title, apologies.

It's clear that Woodward and Jones are England's two most successful coaches (WC and win rate). Jones has the broader international experience with both Australia and Japan, in particular what he achieved with Japan was extraordinary. Personally, with Woodward I can't look past the debacle of the 2005 lions tour. Whatever formula he got right with England, it didn't translate and he was out of his depth with the lions, making some shocking decisions.
 

PaulD

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Paul, are you saying the players are 100pct behind Jones? I can't see any with International ambitions being critical, I don't think he takes it well......

That's the way it works . . . If you look at the end of the England careers of Danny Care, Mike Brown etc there is no 'toing and froing' . . . don't do it . . . you're gone. Compare their careers with Ben Young's, not everyone's ideal, but my God is he durable and consistent - similar in many ways to Dawson who's service was sometimes painfully slow, but what a character on the pitch, what a voice! I was once in a lift at Ikea with Martin Bayfield, my little lad was a toddler and sitting on a trolley . . . he looked up at Bayfield and just muttered 'Daddy!" Bayfield, bless him, bent over and rubbed the top of Josh's head and said 'Hi'. I said to Bayfield - "he's a future England scrum-half, he's always got something to say!" Bayfield replied, "You know Daws!"

My concern with the current England team is leadership on the pitch and the ability to move to Plan B or whatever's needed. In the 2003 Team there was Leadership across the park. In the last World Cup Final we were witness to the fact that the Onfield Brain couldn't adapt to what was in front of them.
 

mrnotherone

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My concern with the current England team is leadership on the pitch and the ability to move to Plan B or whatever's needed. In the 2003 Team there was Leadership across the park. In the last World Cup Final we were witness to the fact that the Onfield Brain couldn't adapt to what was in front of them.
I don't think that's unique to England. The modern international game rewards low risk, safety and strong defence. Few teams seem able to switch gear or execute a plan based on changing circumstance. There seems to be fewer maverick playmakers, with selection favouring solid reliability. Between the 10m lines, most teams now would prefer not to have the ball !
 

green man

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I think consistency is a key measure . . . longest winning run etc. Clive Woodward winning percentage 71%. Listen to what the players say about Eddie.

The current crop of players didn't play under Woodward; they really only have Lancaster to compare (most don't go back that far). I bet they'd swap a run of form, for 71% and a world cup winners medal. Eddie won't go down in history, Woodward will.
 

boisker

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The 2001-2003 England side was very similar to the current side in playing terms... it’s easy to look back with rose tinted glasses... the success was based on a dominant pack, a hard number 10 who tackled and kicked, all the other nations commented on England only having one style of play back then... one dimensional rugby being a regular criticism.
but it worked... and delivered a WC, albeit for Woodward at the second attempt... the current squad is way younger than the 2003 squad was in 2000, so Jones may possibly be following the same trajectory:)
 

boisker

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I don't think that's unique to England. The modern international game rewards low risk, safety and strong defence. Few teams seem able to switch gear or execute a plan based on changing circumstance. There seems to be fewer maverick playmakers, with selection favouring solid reliability. Between the 10m lines, most teams now would prefer not to have the ball !

in the match discussion Habana was saying statistically the team that kicks the most wins.... may not be the most exciting, but piling on the pressure and repeatedly making the opposition play out of their 20 leads to mistakes and points... and with modern defences few teams go the length of the pitch to score breakaway tries
 

boisker

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Definitely... when you've won a world cup! :geek: Hope you're right about the general trajectory. It would be nice to win the WC in Paris.

I reckon we’ll be there or thereabouts.... but I definitely wouldn’t put any money on it 😂
 

PaulD

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in the match discussion Habana was saying statistically the team that kicks the most wins.... may not be the most exciting, but piling on the pressure and repeatedly making the opposition play out of their 20 leads to mistakes and points... and with modern defences few teams go the length of the pitch to score breakaway tries

In 1963 the laws of the game were that you could kick the ball directly into touch from wherever you were on the field. That year there was a Wales v Scotland, 4 Nations Test where there were 111 lineouts - Wales won 6 - 0. From 1970 onwards, the laws were changed so that a kick directly into touch from outside the 25yd line could not go directly into touch for a yardage gain. Subsequently, slow or delayed ball from a breakdown promoted the use of the infield box kick as an attacking option - high beyond the first line of defense, putting the back three under pressure, making the defenders turn and putting your own attack on the front foot. Until the early 70s, as a scrum half. I had never box kicked in-field outside the 25. The speed and organisation of today's defenses means that the 'champagne rugby' of Wales in the 60s and 70s is mostly a memory. Jonny May's try last weekend was a freakish occurrence. If Phil Bennett played today, in the manner he did in his day, he would not reach the age he currently is.
 

mrnotherone

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I reckon we’ll be there or thereabouts.... but I definitely wouldn’t put any money on it 😂

I wouldn't either, but I do think for the first time since 2003 England have a team that can win it again. They came close last time, but they will be mentally better next time and some of the more talented will be peaking. Pains be to admit it of course... :)
 

delray

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1970! If I had been asked to name that year, I would have said 1980 at the earliest.
Short of losing flankers (making Union even closer to League), I've been wondering for a while what can be done to free up space and have no ideas. Top end Rugby has become suffocatingly claustrophobic.
 

PaulD

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Top end Rugby has become suffocatingly claustrophobic.

The players are generally bigger and they're faster around the park, effectively making the playing area 'smaller', creating space around broken play or through the three-quarter line borders on the improbable. Aggressive defence and forcing the opposition into error is the most productive ploy.

When I played I was typical size for a scrum half, 5ft 9" and about 11.5 stones - Ben Youngs is 5'10" and 14st 7lb. Connor Murray is 6' 2" and 14st 9lb. I remember running out at Sheffield Tigers and wondering where their scrum half was . . . I discovered at the first scrum . . . he was over 6ft!
 

mrnotherone

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The players are generally bigger and they're faster around the park, effectively making the playing area 'smaller', creating space around broken play or through the three-quarter line borders on the improbable. Aggressive defence and forcing the opposition into error is the most productive ploy.

When I played I was typical size for a scrum half, 5ft 9" and about 11.5 stones - Ben Youngs is 5'10" and 14st 7lb. Connor Murray is 6' 2" and 14st 9lb. I remember running out at Sheffield Tigers and wondering where their scrum half was . . . I discovered at the first scrum . . . he was over 6ft!
I remember going to watch Wales v France at Cardiff in the early 2000's and reading in the programme that the Welsh backs combined weight that day, was heavier than the Welsh pack that faced France 20 years earlier!

I played until I was 35 (also a scrum half) in what would now be equivalent to National League 1. The game was just turning professional and I remember in my last few seasons I couldn't believe how big people were getting. Most weeks I looked like I'd gone ten rounds with Sugar Ray...
 

PaulD

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I used to take my school class to Northampton Saints - they'd run team building experience days for juniour school children - and the last time I was there I was talking about the same thing with some of the coaching staff. According to them, playing a game of Premiership rugby is the equivalent of being involved in three, 30mph road accidents, in 80 minutes!
 

delray

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Anyone else p'd off with Fiji. I've listened to the Pacific Islanders criticism for years of the World Union's inability to provide decent funding and their lack of opportunity to compete in Test Matches with the so called top tier teams. Dan Teo was at it recently (nasty, huge lump; watched him playing for Bishop Stortford v Old Albanians the season before last, quite scary)
Well, here was A chance, and what happened? While all the other teams were going about their business in a professional manner, avoiding Covid, staying healthy, it would appear Fiji had a different method.
I'm wondering if it was their Religiousness that ended with the bulk of the squad contracting Covid. Whatever, they knew the protocols and have let the Competition organisers down badly. Of course there may be more to it..
 
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