Can you cast a full length of 30 yard WF fly line?

Ability to cast a full 30 yard fly line off the reel. Normal single handed rod and WF fly line

  • Easy, no problem

    Votes: 20 21.7%
  • Occasionally, with a following wind behind me.

    Votes: 15 16.3%
  • Get close, but usually few coils left on the reel

    Votes: 16 17.4%
  • No chance

    Votes: 33 35.9%
  • Never tried

    Votes: 8 8.7%

  • Total voters
    92

aenoon

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Aye, get the tape of truth, think about it....
Aye, get the tape of truth, think about it....
I was not refering to the the "lies" thread! honest.
Was more my thinking that casting "the line" 30yds in real fishing situation, will have a leader on end to hold fly.
Say nominal 4yds leader, 30 yds line out, we now could have 34 yds to fly!
i.e amount of line cast is not the same as distance to fly!
 

original cormorant

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1,6 grams difference doesn't make that difference.
And unless you hit the ground or hook yourself, the part of the line behind the tip won't be travelling faster. So I suggest you have abother look, most likely, the "fault" is there all along, but gets more pronounced with the slightly heavier line.
And those TT skagit lines are quite hard to cast for distance, a gentle backcast, good amoubt if drift as they tend to kick, and a very controlled delivery wity a early release so not to waste any flyleg shooting travel. Holding on too long means there's alot of momentum in the unrolled line, flying spaghetti will be on the menu 🙂

Cheers
Lasse
Well I got out there again today and the problem had disappeared. The key seemed to be relax. Previously I was getting spaghetti where the tip of the line landed. As you say and I suspected the the fault was amplified by the marginally heavier line.

They're not dh lines (it's TT Bermuda shorts), or were you simply calling short heavy headed lines skagit I was referring to grain weights because the lines are wrongly labelled ie #9 labelled #7 and #9.5 labelled as #8.
I also tried the #8/#9.5 on a #9 rod - it cast ok for shorter casts but you need to adjust your cast to get distance. On balance I simply dont like the #8/#9.5 on either an 8 or 9 rod. But I am happy casting the #7/#9 on an 8 rod. Lucky I didn't pay much for these lines!
 

karlsson

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Well I got out there again today and the problem had disappeared. The key seemed to be relax. Previously I was getting spaghetti where the tip of the line landed. As you say and I suspected the the fault was amplified by the marginally heavier line.

They're not dh lines (it's TT Bermuda shorts), or were you simply calling short heavy headed lines skagit I was referring to grain weights because the lines are wrongly labelled ie #9 labelled #7 and #9.5 labelled as #8.
I also tried the #8/#9.5 on a #9 rod - it cast ok for shorter casts but you need to adjust your cast to get distance. On balance I simply dont like the #8/#9.5 on either an 8 or 9 rod. But I am happy casting the #7/#9 on an 8 rod. Lucky I didn't pay much for these lines!
Na, it was the headlength of 23 feet, the TT line with that app. headlength is the ambush, and that's basicly a skagit line, btw skagit isn't exclusivly for two handed rods, its just a short heavy head with little to none taper desigbed to deliver big flies on light rods. The Bermuda TT should sport a 30 feet head not a 23 feet one 🙂
And all short headed lines are integrated shootinghead style ones, so they are overweight according to AFFTA.

And yes, relaxing is a key to casting. It makes so much easier to do the constant adjusments we have to do while casting in the real world 😊

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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Is there a sports physio explanation around why relaxing makes physical movement more efficient? it's a significant enough thing to be understood more, all I can come up with is smooth is good.
 

original cormorant

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Na, it was the headlength of 23 feet, the TT line with that app. headlength is the ambush, and that's basicly a skagit line, btw skagit isn't exclusivly for two handed rods, its just a short heavy head with little to none taper desigbed to deliver big flies on light rods. The Bermuda TT should sport a 30 feet head not a 23 feet one 🙂
And all short headed lines are integrated shootinghead style ones, so they are overweight according to AFFTA.

I'd just assumed that skagit was dh only - live and learn.

These lines are Bermuda Shorts = 23ft head as opposed to Bermuda = 30ft.
Standard TT 30ft or longer on freshwater, is my go to line for floating freshwater and tropical lines. I now seem to have learnt to avoid short headed lines - they don't seem to be solving a problem for me.

Cheers
 

PaulD

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Is there a sports physio explanation around why relaxing makes physical movement more efficient? it's a significant enough thing to be understood more, all I can come up with is smooth is good.
Smooth is good is the answer. The action of casting needs 'smooth' application of effort . . . Smooth acceleration to a clear stop.
In any athletic event, the preparation is key, the 'warm up', not just to mitigate against against injury, but also to prepare for the key elements / movements of the activity. Warm up is mental and physical, the head needs to be in the 'right place' and the function and performance of the muscles involved needs to be ready.
 

ed_t

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Smooth is good is the answer. The action of casting needs 'smooth' application of effort . . . Smooth acceleration to a clear stop.
In any athletic event, the preparation is key, the 'warm up', not just to mitigate against against injury, but also to prepare for the key elements / movements of the activity. Warm up is mental and physical, the head needs to be in the 'right place' and the function and performance of the muscles involved needs to be ready.
I think I was the golfing gorilla. I could drive 300+ but 4 put or worse. Driving range driver practice was 5-10 balls to limber up, 20 odd at max power trying to hit it over the 18' fence at 250 yards, then ease off and pick and aim. The easing off allowed more finesse with draw and fade, much more consistency and quite often, just as many going over the fence. I'd then revert to periods of short game practice and lose my driver, then driving practice and lose the short game, but ultimately never practiced as much as I should... nor in hind sight got enough refresher lessons to iron out bad emerging habits.
 

karlsson

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I was not refering to the the "lies" thread! honest.
Was more my thinking that casting "the line" 30yds in real fishing situation, will have a leader on end to hold fly.
Say nominal 4yds leader, 30 yds line out, we now could have 34 yds to fly!
i.e amount of line cast is not the same as distance to fly!
Same deal, the more line one throws, the more will be lost in wrinkles, hence the tape is needed.
Only way to have your 34 yards from foot to fly, would be to have someone walk it out and tighten it. It will take a skilled caster to have the fly end up at 30 yards with your 34 yards total. And then everything looks very straight.

And from old habit, I always include total length when talking about these things, my bad...
17 years of measuring candidates casts and 15 years of measuring competition casts does that to one 😊

Cheers
Lasse
 

sewinbasher

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I could put a full line out when I was younger but the rod was a "casting tool" not a fishing rod and the line landed like a sack of spuds!
 

ohanzee

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Smooth is good is the answer. The action of casting needs 'smooth' application of effort . . . Smooth acceleration to a clear stop.
In any athletic event, the preparation is key, the 'warm up', not just to mitigate against against injury, but also to prepare for the key elements / movements of the activity. Warm up is mental and physical, the head needs to be in the 'right place' and the function and performance of the muscles involved needs to be ready.

I once asked Tony Riley, a particularly smooth caster, how to get such a smooth cast, he said... 'cast smooth', I suppose this answers it up to a point and we all know smooth is efficient but I think breaking down how to achieve 'smooth' is worthy of deeper investigation.

For example we know relaxing can = smooth and more efficient application of power, less energy and so on, but I'll be damned if I can explain why.
 

Tangled

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I once asked Tony Riley, a particularly smooth caster, how to get such a smooth cast, he said... 'cast smooth', I suppose this answers it up to a point and we all know smooth is efficient but I think breaking down how to achieve 'smooth' is worthy of deeper investigation.

For example we know relaxing can = smooth and more efficient application of power, less energy and so on, but I'll be damned if I can explain why.
I was taught to start by casting a 25' line as slowly as I can and get an absolutely wrinkle free cast. Then gradually let more line out but not until you can do it just as smoothly. When it all falls apart, step down one and start again.
 

ohanzee

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I was taught to start by casting a 25' line as slowly as I can and get an absolutely wrinkle free cast. Then gradually let more line out but not until you can do it just as smoothly. When it all falls apart, step down one and start again.

Good enough advice but you might be there a while.
 

geenomad

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Is there a sports physio explanation around why relaxing makes physical movement more efficient? it's a significant enough thing to be understood more, all I can come up with is smooth is good.

Hi Alan
Smooth is good because.... to be smooth one has to go easy on the effort and effort is the enemy of control and smoothness is a demonstration of well controlled and economic movement. Smooth looks "easy" because in an effort sense, it is.

Being relaxed is helpful to being smooth. I have had a decent look at sensory motor learning and thus a bit of a look at sensory motor systems - a large and still developing subject in which I do not claim more than amateur expertise. Here's my best effort at a short answer.

Our soft tissue, muscles and tendons included, have what are called "presets" - the state they are in before you begin to move. The presets change with your mental state (mind/body is a false dichotomy). Under stress we tend to "tense up" meaning our presets change - they shorten. When we are wound up our motors skills suffer - we get clumsy. Movement is less fluid and less well controlled. We might, for example, tend to snatch at the change of direction.

Fly casting isn't really an athletic activity and we don't need great strength or fast twitch contributions from our musculature to perform it well and especially to perform it gracefully.

Cheers
Mark
 

ohanzee

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Cheers Mark, I'm a bit behind in scientific understanding of it but I feel it, if I go through a disciplined reduction of power, maybe three steps halving the power input each time at 50' I can then cast to 70' with almost no effort whatsoever, just float the line like trying to drive light on the pedal without using fuel, same speed but almost freewheeling, in the cast I'm using the very minimum power to float the line.
As I explain that what strikes me is that I am using power to maintain the line against gravity, my mind is not on distance, that is just a by product of 'floating' more or less line with the least amount of energy.
When I'm doing this I'm reaching 50 or 70' with virtually no effort, it's been turned down to the minimum required just to keep from stalling in the air, so casting a bit further is just a little more power to control a bit more line.

But..if I just pick up the very same rod to cast to 70' I use more power, I have to consciously remind myself to reduce that effort, and only when I do can I then control a bit more line.
 

Tangled

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I know exactly what you mean.

That's the point of the slow down exercise; slow everything down to almost nothing at, say, 30' - the crucial part is to eradicate all the wobbles in the line. It needs to be totally wave free - that's where the energy loss is - it the line wobbles. You can put more energy into making a less efficient cast. It's bloody annoying.

Once you get the efficient wobble free cast at no real distance the step to the next distance seems effortless. But as soon as you start to push hard for the next distance without removing the wobbles where you are, it all falls apart. (Wobbles, of course is just shorthand for tracking errors in both planes.)

It's an odd realisation that it's true that less is more.
 

Rhithrogena

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Excellent stuff!
The required muscle-memory only comes from practice, practice, practice.
It's all back to controlling the rod tip-path.
Excellent long casters know how to move the rod tip smoothly and QUICKLY through a long tip-path, and then smoothly stopping the movement through a controlled arc off this tip-path (controlling loop size), whilst controlling any tendency of the tip to kick down. Any action which allows the tip to deviate from the 'correct' path will cause waves, and dissipation of energy....
As you rightly say: concentrating on smoothness facilitates all of the above.
 

ohanzee

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I know exactly what you mean.

That's the point of the slow down exercise; slow everything down to almost nothing at, say, 30' - the crucial part is to eradicate all the wobbles in the line. It needs to be totally wave free - that's where the energy loss is - it the line wobbles. You can put more energy into making a less efficient cast. It's bloody annoying.

Once you get the efficient wobble free cast at no real distance the step to the next distance seems effortless. But as soon as you start to push hard for the next distance without removing the wobbles where you are, it all falls apart. (Wobbles, of course is just shorthand for tracking errors in both planes.)

It's an odd realisation that it's true that less is more.

I'm not sure slowing down, often to maintain minimal power you need to speed up..but with less power, I visualise it like turning a volume button down, for half power I visualise turning it to half the volume, but I try to keep the other components of the cast independent if that makes sense.
 

geenomad

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As I explain that what strikes me is that I am using power to maintain the line against gravity, my mind is not on distance, that is just a by product of 'floating' more or less line with the least amount of energy.
Hi Alan
I agree with all you wrote but singling this bit out. Less effort = more control. The object of control is not merely to point the line at a target, it is to focus as much of the caster's energy as possible - in the intended direction of the cast and when we do that we discover just how little effort is required to make the cast and just how much and how often we have been overpowering. (A minimal power drill is a useful counter measure. Often open and close a practice session with this.) And yes, it feels quite delightful when the fly lands 10' or 15' further away than the felt effort would have predicted. I try to establish that feeling as the new normal. :cool:

It's counter instinctive. We learn early on that throwing further means throwing harder. In fly casting? Not.

Cheers
Mark
 

Rhithrogena

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Further DOES mean harder. I take the point that many casters habitually over-power, but It is useful to practice casting with the most power possible, as well as with the least. Being able to vary the line speed allows you to deal with a head-wind, or a tail-wind, or to lift the line over obstacles behind, or to side cast, for example. And ultimately to cast a long way.
Overpowering short casts smoothly and well teaches the muscle memory needed for distance casting. It is also an essential skill in dry-fly work for proper false casting to dry the fly.
Applying just the right power for the situation is key.
So learn to drive with a light foot on the gas, but also know how to floor it 😂
 
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