Casting practice; Do you ? Dont you? Is it nuts? (and thumbs up BFCC)

James9118

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A while back I asked Vince about dolphin noses and he had a few theories but admitted to not having an explanation that he was really happy with.
Is it possible that the rotational inertia of the loop contributes/causes them?
It's probably a horribly complicated superposition of line stiffness, line entering the deceleration zone, angular momentum/inertia and skin drag.

Is there an example/photo of a perfect cast, did I miss it?
There's probably no such thing. This then leads certain authors to start drawing the unachievable which doesn't help anyone.
 

Whinging pom

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t's probably a horribly complicated superposition of line stiffness, line entering the deceleration zone, angular momentum/inertia and skin drag.
James
Based on that, is it correct to assume that the classic wedge nose we see from you distance casters is much the same but with less momentum loss in that deceleration zone? … or is it something more mundane like air-pressure/ resistance on the front of a wider loop? ?
 

karlsson

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James
Based on that, is it correct to assume that the classic wedge nose we see from you distance casters is much the same but with less momentum loss in that deceleration zone? … or is it something more mundane like air-pressure/ resistance on the front of a wider loop? ?
Could you show a picture of that wedge shaped loop?

Cheers
Lasse
 

Whinging pom

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Could you show a picture of that wedge shaped loop?
Lasse
Well if it’s distance it won’t be me casting it 😂
Im in work mode at the moment as dare not get distracted by fly casting . I’ll try and find something this evening. Thanks
All best
Pom
 

Whinging pom

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Lasse
Couldn't resist it!
the best version I can see is, but I notice I've seen it wrong, the wedge is pointing up with a hinge in the rod leg angling up to it.
I can't screenshot it the loops are not clear when still

however, I could get a few screenshots of some legend at play,
2021-10-13 (3).png


2021-10-13 (5).png
Capture.JPG

hope that's ok with you?!
all best
pom ( back to work!)
 

Dingbat

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It's probably a horribly complicated superposition of line stiffness, line entering the deceleration zone, angular momentum/inertia and skin drag.


There's probably no such thing. This then leads certain authors to start drawing the unachievable which doesn't help anyone.
The problem is that with all this aerodynamics do-dah, people seem to forget that the forward cast is dependent on the back cast which is itself dependent on the false cast and so on backwards to some degree n. That figure n might well be rather large in terms of the effect compared to say air pressure, friction, stiffness etc. most of which effects are quite possibly small compared to a slight change in rod tip angle. This is what people are intuitively tying to iron out by multiple false casting before the actual event. By which measure, most technical analysis I've read on these pages are trying to answer the wrong question.

Even the video in post #116 - which is straight off the ground, can't guarantee non-erratic friction in the liftoff
 

James9118

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The problem is that with all this aerodynamics do-dah, people seem to forget that the forward cast is dependent on the back cast which is itself dependent on the false cast and so on backwards to some degree n. That figure n might well be rather large in terms of the effect compared to say air pressure, friction, stiffness etc. most of which effects are quite possibly small compared to a slight change in rod tip angle. This is what people are intuitively tying to iron out by multiple false casting before the actual event. By which measure, most technical analysis I've read on these pages are trying to answer the wrong question.

Even the video in post #116 - which is straight off the ground, can't guarantee non-erratic friction in the liftoff
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there sorry. Are you discussing DNLs as I was? If so, you don't even need a fly cast to produce them, so the false cast before doesn't matter one jot:

 

Whinging pom

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The problem is that with all this aerodynamics do-dah, people seem to forget that the forward cast is dependent on the back cast which is itself dependent on the false cast and so on backwards to some degree n.
Dingbat
The by-product of all this talk is that I feel like I understand from what’s been said, what creates the situation where Dolphin Nose Loops appear, That maybe over the top do-dah for some people, and "who needs it?" I get that, if you are content with your level and knowledge then why bother .. Personally, I'm not!

And this is how it works on me, When practicing today I got into a groove where I was casting nice loops with parallel legs, . ( with thanks to PaulD’s recent guidance)
The backcast must have been pretty good as everything at the front was tickety boo and refreshingly consistent ( THAT is not my norm, I'm still re-learning how to cast), consistent is not me).

I closed down the loops to what looked like a tight 30-40cm and repeated them over a dozen times consistently trying each time just to ease back a smidgen on the power while maintaining the timing, watching for a dolphin to appear, Eventually, it fell apart. no Dolphins :(
So I stopped and put the rod down feeling somewhat defeated.

I then thought “ Avery you dope you just cast a dozen of the most consistent and controlled loops"!
Considering how I was casting a month back that’s another new level for me.
"What the hell are you beating yourself up about ?!!”

Wanting to strive further Id failed in my goal, but surpassed my previous abilities without even thinking about it. I'd just slipped by to a new level.
I hope that kind of makes sense
all best
the pom
 

Dingbat

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Dingbat
The by-product of all this talk is that I feel like I understand from what’s been said, what creates the situation where Dolphin Nose Loops appear, That maybe over the top do-dah for some people, and "who needs it?" I get that, if you are content with your level and knowledge then why bother .. Personally, I'm not!

And this is how it works on me, When practicing today I got into a groove where I was casting nice loops with parallel legs, . ( with thanks to PaulD’s recent guidance)
The backcast must have been pretty good as everything at the front was tickety boo and refreshingly consistent ( THAT is not my norm, I'm still re-learning how to cast), consistent is not me).

I closed down the loops to what looked like a tight 30-40cm and repeated them over a dozen times consistently trying each time just to ease back a smidgen on the power while maintaining the timing, watching for a dolphin to appear, Eventually, it fell apart. no Dolphins :(
So I stopped and put the rod down feeling somewhat defeated.

I then thought “ Avery you dope you just cast a dozen of the most consistent and controlled loops"!
Considering how I was casting a month back that’s another new level for me.
"What the hell are you beating yourself up about ?!!”

Wanting to strive further Id failed in my goal, but surpassed my previous abilities without even thinking about it. I'd just slipped by to a new level.
I hope that kind of makes sense
all best
the pom
No, you misunderstand me - getting into the (a) groove is what you want - the shape of loops are confirmation of a groove. Hell, I was taught nymph fishing over this forum and I can remember the sheer delight of feeling the nymph bouncing over the river bed exactly as predicted - just before it got caught in a jagged rock ...

I've yet to be convinced of both the target and the value of a technical (aerodynamic/mathematical) analysis, for the reasons I stated above.
 

James9118

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I've yet to be convinced of both the target and the value of a technical (aerodynamic/mathematical) analysis, for the reasons I stated above.
Funny enough I tend to agree with you. It's easy to get into a level of technical detail that isn't going to help you cast. When I'm trying my best to cast well in a competition all I think about is how my body is moving, nothing more technical than that.

As far as DNLs goes, being able to cast them shows the caster has fine control over their loop width and power, and that has to be a good thing for someone looking to improve. Ultimately understanding the physics behind them isn't that important unless you're a casting geek (like me). However, if people ask technical questions they're going to get technical answers.
 

karlsson

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I closed down the loops to what looked like a tight 30-40cm and repeated them over a dozen times consistently trying each time just to ease back a smidgen on the power while maintaining the timing, watching for a dolphin to appear, Eventually, it fell apart. no Dolphins :(
So I stopped and put the rod down feeling somewhat defeated.

DNL happens right at the edge of the front of the loop, darn hard place to spot anything when we as a caster is looking down the line.
We're in a crap place to observe, one of the reasons all those perfect loop drawings are failing big time, unless you are an onlooker 🙂

Try the vertical snaps, it might also take a while to spot them, even when they are there, high speed video shows stuff that most miss completly normally.

Cheers
Lasse
 

Whinging pom

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I've yet to be convinced of both the target and the value of a technical (aerodynamic/mathematical) analysis, for the reasons I stated above.
My take on it is this :-
The mechanics of Fly casting and the subsequent result on the fly line follows the rules of nature.
To understand and communicate on the complexities and various aspects without too much ambiguity it is best put in those terms and adhering to natural laws.

The language of nature is physics.

I'm soon lost in maths and science. and some previous threads have had me struggling at times,
I’ve not seen anything too taxing on the little grey cells on here though.
How is James to explain the formation of dolphin-nosed loops without talking about velocity, drag, aerodynamics, inertia etc. He could say just get a nice loop and reduce the power a little, but it’s not helping me understand.
I guess some of us just like to pull things apart to understand how the mechanics work.
all best
Pom

Edit : oops just noticed James posted and put it so much better.
 
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Whinging pom

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Try the vertical snaps, it might also take a while to spot them, even when they are there, high speed video shows stuff that most miss completly normally.
ha ha i did try it today on a whim. OMG the birdsnest I created.
That's 15mins of my life I will never recover :).
Also took a camera and tripod, cleared nettles to get good angle, set up tripod lined everything up. Had dark grey clouds behind the line and sunlight illuminating the scene. pressed the remote and a screen message came up that the SD card didn't support movie mode. Doh!

Tell me please wedges, am I right calling them wedges and in your cast are you creating them for a purpose or are they a by-product of the mechanics of a long cast?
thanks
pom
 

karlsson

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Tell me please wedges, am I right calling them wedges and in your cast are you creating them for a purpose or are they a by-product of the mechanics of a long cast?
thanks
pom

Hi Pom

Ah yeah, wedges, those sexy bastards :) I usually tell students that loops are a by product of what we do, we accelerate a line, as close as we can towards one direction, and then we see if we did things good or bad. The wedge tells a tale of pretty straight acceleration, and the bottom dip is basicly end of counterflex. when the rodtip changes directions it tend to set a marker in the line, and they sometimes stay for quite a while. I am sure James can explain the better details of it.
Worth remembering is that all loops morph shape during unrolling, most pronounced is the 170 techniques distance cast, less so in the normal shortish overhead, but they do...

170, look at the initial size of loop, and how it changes shape rapidly

Fooling around in Tim Rajeff's backyard, just a short cast, but notice the changes, and the DNL appearing at the end of the second cast

Something a bit different, shootinghead, with markers on the line, notice the absolute mess in the backcast, and notice how the pointed wedge appears in the forward cast

And thanks for the kind words in the post with the pictures!

Cheers
lasse
 

Whinging pom

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Lasse
Thank you so much for explaining that,
I was surprised at the size of the rod arc on the short cast but the results are there to see ( including the dolphin). I really do need to tape myself and see what I am actually doing.
( And aren't the morphing of loops beautiful in slow motion, I can never seem to tire of watching them and wondering how they will unfurl).

The marker on the rod tip is fascinating to watch, particularly for me just how that 'slide' relates to the tip and the line marker. ( I hope I'm describing and seeing this right).
I assumed it was just a passive shift of the rod along the line to bring it back to the hauling hand .It looks to me like the back haul is returning to the rod and the shift has already started As that hand slides into position and the down haul starts it looks like the rod tip is already picking up momentum ( the wrist rotation started??) and yet that line marker seems to stay dead level, . That timing is incredible and the hauls are ( revelation time!) just one smooth continuous flow no pause and very little speed change! The pause is with the rod tip only.

Crucially though it seems your wrist rotation is smooth and steady throughout the stroke, with no late rotation, is that where your wedge front is coming from?

Looking at that ( and this is in no way a criticism I'm just trying to learn) are you happy with the rod angle in the slide or would you prefer it to have remained more level along the line path?
Thank you for the insights, it's educational and really inspiring!
all best
Pom
 
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Whinging pom

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Well, I thought id take my new double haul out today and add some drift after some friendly advice from Paul D.
So I thought id look up some 'How to' and 'what not to' advice on youtube. But got distracted by this !!!
How good is this guy at explaining? I thought I'd pretty much got roll casting down pat!

Drift can wait today, I'm going back to the very basics again today to play with this.
Meanwhile, any good advice on Drifting is gratefully received.
thanks y'all
that pom
 

Whinging pom

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OH and another question if anyones listening who's big on the technical.
I get the \\\\\/ on rotation.

As I am using a through action ( winston DL5) 5 wt should my rotation be a little earlier
Should it be more \\\\// .... or am I losing the plot?

( And Lasse if your around still that wonderful ,In that lovely 170 above are you rotating early or have I got this wrong ?... Please!)

Off with a fly rod
the pom
 

Rhithrogena

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But got distracted by this !!!
How good is this guy at explaining?
Interesting apart from the 30' of #5 line is 30g bit (a #13 line would be about that weight...). And clearly roll casting like that doesn't really work if you are wading or on a bank with vegetation behind. I realise this is just explaining the fact that the line behind the rod drives the cast and this is nicely demonstrated here
 

Whinging pom

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Interesting apart from the 30' of #5 line is 30g bit (a #13 line would be about that weight...). And clearly roll casting like that doesn't really work if you are wading or on a bank with vegetation behind. I realise this is just explaining the fact that the line behind the rod drives the cast and this is nicely demonstrated here
Yep but it’s an anology to explain the concept and help remember the important points. It’s like his honey lake .. it’s draft but helps you get the message.
I was taught to roll cast and read that the line on the waters surface tension was what ( cringe coming) loaded the rod. So whatever I have learnt since is informed by that old article or book.
His vertical heights was also something I hadn’t considered. it’s much more flexible than Id considered
 

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