Casting practice; Do you ? Dont you? Is it nuts? (and thumbs up BFCC)

Rhithrogena

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As I am using a through action ( winston DL5) 5 wt should my rotation be a little earlier
The rotation should still be late. During the backslash/translation stage you are pulling the line to get it moving. If you rotate too soon, you waste some of the energy available in just bending the rod, which slows the pull and disrupts the transition to foward slash, which is wasteful of line speed. The amount of rotation needed is different with a bendier rod; the forward stop needs care to control loop size. Over rotation can be a problem but it is perfectly possible to cast far with high line speeds, with a through actioned rod.
EDIT: just nipped out back with a 4wt Orvis Western and realised that compared to a stiffer rod my casting stroke was shortened, so although the rotation was at the end of the translation phase, the translation was actually shorter than for a stiffer rod. So I guess this could be seen as earlier rotation 🤷‍♂️
 
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karlsson

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Something to ponder about regarding soft and stiff fishing rods:


And yeah, now peps say, you're not hauling and the line is too short, and other stuff....


Rods don't care, casters do, or to put it like Peter Hayes told me, line never lies to the rod, the caster does 😉

Cheers
Lasse
 

Rhithrogena

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Something to ponder about regardibg soft and stiff fishing rods:
Good stuff there. I have never tried this. Maybe there is less difference than I thought with my stroke with the softer rods; just an illusion because my softer rods tend to be lower line ratings 🤷‍♂️
 

karlsson

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You should try it out, if you have two similar or preferably equal lines, and equal length rods. One needs a very stiff rod to get different result. That's not saying those two rods feel equal, they feel very much different, and its that feel that tends to make us do big adjustments which we shouldn't make.
Feel is the big elephant in the room, that everyone talks around, but not about.

🙂

Cheers
Lasse
 

Whinging pom

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Something to ponder about regarding soft and stiff fishing rods:


And yeah, now peps say, you're not hauling and the line is too short, and other stuff....


Rods don't care, casters do, or to put it like Peter Hayes told me, line never lies to the rod, the caster does 😉

Cheers
Lasse
Im pondering!
(amongst the things I'm pondering is how many tangles you got before a perfect set?)
As always with you its never the reply I expect... it's so much more than that.
Brilliant , wish I had an arsenal of gear to try out.
Meanwhile, I'm off to ponder more.
Thanks fella
all best
pom
 

karlsson

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Im pondering!
(amongst the things I'm pondering is how many tangles you got before a perfect set?)
As always with you its never the reply I expect... it's so much more than that.
Brilliant , wish I had an arsenal of gear to try out.
Meanwhile, I'm off to ponder more.
Thanks fella
all best
pom
I am only a half decent caster, but semi ok actor, those where first takes. I have used it since in my demos 🙂

Cheers
Lasse
 

andygrey

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The rotation should still be late. During the backslash/translation stage you are pulling the line to get it moving. If you rotate too soon, you waste some of the energy available in just bending the rod, which slows the pull and disrupts the transition to foward slash, which is wasteful of line speed. The amount of rotation needed is different with a bendier rod; the forward stop needs care to control loop size. Over rotation can be a problem but it is perfectly possible to cast far with high line speeds, with a through actioned rod.
EDIT: just nipped out back with a 4wt Orvis Western and realised that compared to a stiffer rod my casting stroke was shortened, so although the rotation was at the end of the translation phase, the translation was actually shorter than for a stiffer rod. So I guess this could be seen as earlier rotation 🤷‍♂️
There is a bit more to the benefits of late rotation than this.
We rely on the rod flexing to achieve SLP and rod flex increases during the stroke meaning that that at the beginning of the stroke there is little rod flex to flatten the arc. Ideally rotation should be matched to rod flex, therefore the beginning of the stroke should be just translation with the rotation coming in towards the end of the end of the stroke.
I seem to recall seeing a graphical representation of rotation V's rod flex for 'good cast' on here before. @James9118 @karlsson could you help with this?
 

Whinging pom

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Hi Andy
Great to read what you have to say on it.

Just been reading a sexy loops page on ‘Late rod rotation and softer rods’, I just found this which is interesting especially what he’s saying at 3.50mins.
He also mentions that tight wedge point (that Lasse illustrated ).
One thing I notice about Steve Rajeff is (that for a big fella) even on smaller casts he is so active with his weight distribution on his feet.. he’s constantly rocking with the cast stroke.
All best
Pom
 
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ohanzee

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Hi Andy
Great to read what you have to say on it.

Just been reading a sexy loops page on ‘Late rod rotation and softer rods’, I just found this which is interesting especially what he’s saying at 3.50mins.
He also mentions that tight wedge point (that Lasse illustrated ).
One thing I notice about Steve Rajeff is (that for a big fella) even on smaller casts he is so active with his weight distribution on his feet.. he’s constantly rocking with the cast stroke.
All best
Pom

It's interesting what he says about the natural position at the end, when I'm fishing at 50/60' ranges and grooved in my movements become very compact, when all the bits of my arm are articulating the stroke is reduced...I'm not actually sure what I'm saying here it just occurred to me watching that after drinking 2 Lemsips 🥴
 

Whinging pom

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On the Tarns and hill loch thread, it got me thinking about the few times I’ve done it looking for rising trout and thinking of the adrenaline when you see something suddenly rising much further out and have to quickly shoot some line to cover it accurately and delicately.
The panic and stiffening up means I mostly remember making a complete hash of it.

It’s a technique I think would be good to practice. Is there any particular drills anyone does for say fishing the flats . Getting from a few rod lengths to the max shoot possible with the very minimum of casts?
 

ohanzee

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On the Tarns and hill loch thread, it got me thinking about the few times I’ve done it looking for rising trout and thinking of the adrenaline when you see something suddenly rising much further out and have to quickly shoot some line to cover it accurately and delicately.
The panic and stiffening up means I mostly remember making a complete hash of it.

It’s a technique I think would be good to practice. Is there any particular drills anyone does for say fishing the flats . Getting from a few rod lengths to the max shoot possible with the very minimum of casts?

Just hoops at different distances really, not necessarily to switch direction or distances, but you do get improve all the tiny motor skills in between things, possibly just out of impatience more than anything.
 

ohanzee

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Pom, I think it's time to assess and reflect on your progress, you have gone from a non confident caster to the forums most dedicated and vocal advocates of practice, so...are you seeing improvement? more confident fishing? willing for more?
 

Whinging pom

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Pom, I think it's time to assess and reflect on your progress, you have gone from a non confident caster to the forums most dedicated and vocal advocates of practice, so...are you seeing improvement? more confident fishing? willing for more?
Since you ask?!

Yeah I’m improving, and looking forward to each occasion I can grab half an hour out working on it and feeling im back something like the standard I was when I used to cast longer rods away from tiny streams. And its debunked a lot of misunderstandings and realised a lot of entrenched bad habits that I’ve developed.

Nearly every time I practice I can feel a new little level reached which is great….
Working with the triangle has really developed feel and visual and loop control, while ridding my system of that bleeding power snap !
I’m enjoying having games to challenge myself and learning drills to follow. Geenomads blog has been inspiring on that , I have it on my phone a read it when I get a moment.

I’ve ordered bright orange heavier line and some 30lb mono to rig up a practice line for hauling.
I am surrounded where I practice by mole hills and they are great for accuracy. But was hoping somebody would describe hovering like I watched James and Tracy doing. Meanwhile I’m earning points for landing yarn on them ( on mole-hills not on James and Tracy that would be weird!)
and losing points for my misses.
( my best score is minus ten 🤦🏻‍♂️… I don’t cheat ! )
There’s a pair of mole hills like close sentinels at 25 yards which is just about my limit at present in distance, but I’m gradually seeing a little more backing appearing each time on both the 5 wt and the 2wt. Thanks to PaulD’s excellent help with double hauling I’ll shots through them someday soon!
I’ve learnt heaps from James and Andy, Rithrogena, Brian, BobP, tangled and of course you with my PMs when I’m out struggling ( Alan how do I fix this ?).

While others are watching Coronation street or East Enders I’m watching Lasse’s slow motion 170’s and thrilling at the mechanics with all the timing and precision of Mo Salahs feet taking a defence apart! What’s not to be inspired by? We’re blessed to have so much talent and knowledge in this forum.

So of course I’m improving! And loving it !
I am getting to a stage where I see mistakes and understand the source and adjust the next cast to correct, which is more than half the battle, isn’t it ?
It’s great !
Now to get even better !

I’m also loving my Winston DL5 but hating the Grip! I feel it aching in my palm and tension in my forearm, it’s a chunkier half wells than I’m used to, I’ve got quite short fingers, the new Borger 3 point grip is great on other rods,but I find my hand wandering trying to find thinner taper of cork and my finger and thumb coming up on the blank of the DL5.
I’ve experimented with rubber bands holding the reel in different positions.
The whole thing feels more stable with the reel right at the end and it flattens out an annoying wiggle in the rod leg of the loop. So Jay p has been advising me how to take the reel seat off and turn the handle grip thinner. I’ll put a down locking reel seat on and fine tune the balance.

Fishing ? I’ve hardly done any, but was in stream cleaning the Redds on Sunday and left a crowbar stood up mid stream in a hawthorn lined, fly line munching, fly devouring little tunnel of thorns, and was casting side on the 6’2wt with my new tiny double hauls (not the old accelerated thrashing) keeping nice tight controlled loops with more line speed, away from the danger and thus from 4 or 5 rod lengths landing the yarn within foot of the crowbar 4 casts out of 5 with confidence while not catching the undergrowth once and no knots in my leader ….which for me starting on this path more than anything was the goal and my biggest bug bear!

So hopefully sometime in the future I can come to some remote hill loch with you guys and enjoy fishing without you feeling duty bound to help me out with my poor struggling, shite casting.
I can turn up at the BFCC and take James on in the accuracy competition and come a respectable and not a laughable last, with my head up!

And even though it’s not anything I would ever use where I fish, sometime soon I’d like to say “Hello backing…Goodbye fly line”. And join the rest of you guys that put yes as an answer at the top of that thread!
( can you cast a 30yrd fly line ?).

I hope I’m not the only one benefitting from this thread and it’s inspired some others to try and improve and enjoy casting for the sake of it and take some of the frustrations out of fishing… make it more fun.

And I am really, really ,pleased that 155 posts into this thread it’s been constructive and polite and respectful which is what I really hoped for and thankyou for everybody whose contributed and kept it that way and not taken the piss. It’s been positive! Thanks
All best Pom.

Ps this is the link to geenomads blog , I really recommend it … this guy loves casting.

Edit; **** happens in life. I’m a great believer in the silver lining ….Turning a bad situation to your advantage.
Whoever ended up with all my fly gear earlier in the season, shook me out of my comfort zone and got me exploring again to find myself in a better place.
Just splashing out tight funds on a new rod was still a cloud, but learning to be much better with it than I’ve been before…now that’s a sliver lining!
 
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geenomad

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Hi WP
All very good news mate. Great to hear that your practice is paying off. (y)(y)

In any sport skill levels vary from mugs to pros. Much of the difference is accounted for by dedication to mindful practice. Fortunately for me, it's never drudgery or mindless repetition. It's where I learn things experientially about movement and its refined adjustment. Being retired gives me mental and physical need together with available time.

Folks who have done the work know what it offers and can be a bit bewildered by other folks who don't do it and won't reap the rewards. These days I just shrug the shoulders because nobody wants to be preached at, however well meaning the evangelist. They will or they won't, entirely their choice.

And yes it's a pleasure to be part of an intelligent, thoughtful and polite exchange. Thanks for kicking it off and setting the tone.

Cheers
Mark
 

James9118

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It’s a technique I think would be good to practice. Is there any particular drills anyone does for say fishing the flats . Getting from a few rod lengths to the max shoot possible with the very minimum of casts?
Hi WP,

One of the reasons people struggle to get the line shooting initially is that often they cast with a fixed arc for all their casting strokes. This means that when there is little line outside of the rod tip they cast fat, inefficient loops that don't shoot well at all.

A good drill is to practice casting really sharp loops with only a few yards of line outside of the rod tip. The target should be to produce a gap between the fly-leg and the rod-leg of no more than 12 inches or so. It should also be the aim to see this loop travel all the way down the line and through the leader (a well constructed leader helps). This is great practice for accuracy also.

I would then think about practicing shooting the line both ways i.e. on the back cast as well as the front (doing this to targets is advisable).

The main thing to concentrate on is 'what correction to the casting arc is required to produce a tight loop with a short line?'. Then lengthen the line and assess again.

For fishing purposes, where someone is in need of a fast shot, making sure each cycle has a good loop (with casting arc adjusted accordingly) that will pull line on both the forward and backward stroke means that the fly will get to where they want it as fast as possible. From fly in hand I can get to my max fishing distance in less than 3 false casts (including the initial flick backwards in that). Perhaps that's another 'game' to play whilst practicing - give yourself a fixed number of false casts (starting with the fly in hand, or at a distance where you'd normally retrieve to) and then measure the distance.

Glad you're enjoying the practice.
 

ohanzee

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A warm up drill from years ago I used to do..starting with a side cast just 40' or whatever, to the right for a right hander, get the cast as flat and controlled as possible then keep it false casting and raise it over head, then over the other side of the body until you are false casting with the same control on the left side of the body.

You can do this by tipping the tip over and still casting on the right, or crossing the hand over to the left shoulder.
After doing this a few times and it feels fairly instinctive you can start to introduce add on's like doing it with minimum power, or concentrating on lifting the back cast or whatever.
 

Whinging pom

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You can do this by tipping the tip over and still casting on the right, or crossing the hand over to the left shoulder.
Your doing that by predominately tilting the wrist and resisting rotation at the elbow? Or keeping the wrist in line with the forearm and rotating at the elbow ?
Are you adjusting your stance?
Are you hauling ,

It’s blowing a hooley here and I’ve just been out punching and targeting straight into the wind. When I came side on I really needed the extra line speed of the haul to deliver it neatly to its destination,
Im trying to figure the movements to haul that..
thanks I’ll definitely give it a go when the wind drops. And James suggestion which I was hoping to do but the wind was destroying small loops close to the rod tip so I went for something to build my confidence and get a good feel of the slimmer rod handle.
Thanks again
Pom
 

ohanzee

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Your doing that by predominately tilting the wrist and resisting rotation at the elbow? Or keeping the wrist in line with the forearm and rotating at the elbow ?
Are you adjusting your stance?
Are you hauling.

I just move the rod tip 6 inches to the left..by rotating at the elbow...and cast as normal, line passes on the other side, fine for short casts, for longer just move the hand to the left shoulder and work from there, bit higher for longer.
Hauling whenever needed, hauling when casting off the shoulder is a bit of a pain for me, I get shorter jerky hauls off shoulder.
 

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