casts hitting line!!

karlsson

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Movie time :

[ame="https://vimeo.com/11968519"]https://vimeo.com/11968519[/ame]

[ame="https://vimeo.com/11968648"]https://vimeo.com/11968648[/ame]

And Vince, it shouldn't matter which way you are going ;)

Cheers
Lasse
 

James9118

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Hi Lasse,

If by 'preload?' you're asking a question there - then my answer would be nope, I see the rod-leg tension, then I see the impulse from the line straightening after which I see your forward cast.

Do you see it differently?

All the best, James
 

karlsson

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Hi James

It's an old clip ,made because a few people claimed there wouldn't be any additionel bend in the rod when the line straightned, the so called "preload"

I do not start the forwrad cast as the rod gets the additionel bend, the clip is made to show the additionel bend, and if I where to start the forward cast at that time, you would not be able to make it out :thumbs:

Cheers
Lasse
 

Guest666

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It might be worth seeing if we are talking about the same thing. For me, preload is the rod being bent at the start of the stroke and I have not yet seen it on the forward cast. Here are a couple of stills from the lower video taken at the point that the hand starts to move. The red line is a notional straight line from the hand along the rod butt, the orange is the line and rod:

Forward Cast



Backcast



I've seen the same assymmetry between back and forward casts in Server Sadiks videos and strain guage readouts. I don't know whether the cause of the assymetry is a matter of timing, the angle between rod and line, hand path or the force applied by the caster but I think it is tied up with why we tend to tail the forward cast much more often than the back. But because the cast is not symmetrical, I think it does matter which way you are going
 

ohanzee

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and if I where to start the forward cast at that time
….would this not be 'creep'?

I'm not suggesting creep is necessarily a bad thing, i use it in much the same way, both ends to keep line tension smooth and consistent, used properly its a useful thing.
 

karlsson

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….would this not be 'creep'?

I'm not suggesting creep is necessarily a bad thing, i use it in much the same way, both ends to keep line tension smooth and consistent, used properly its a useful thing.
No.

Creep is a movement of the rod that lessens the available casting angle and/or the available stroke length for the following cast. And it is done without intent.

If you intend to do it, then it's called drift ;)

Cheers
Lasse
 

karlsson

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Hi Vince

Please don't use the clip to argue something that the clip is not showing :thumbs: I deliberatly waited longer before the forward cast, to show that there can be additionel rodbend due to the line straithening and the excess momentum will pull on the rodtip. As I have already written, I did not start the forward cast at that point, because it will not be visible....

And most people do not tail on the backcast because most people haven't got a clue what is happening behind them, and their backcast has usually a significantly larger loop than their forward cast (another hint to why they tail more often on the forward ;)) Personally my worst tails are on my backcast....

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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No.

Creep is a movement of the rod that lessens the available casting angle and/or the available stroke length for the following cast. And it is done without intent.

If you intend to do it, then it's called drift ;)

Cheers
Lasse
Drifting tends to be in the direction of the cast, creep in the opposite, are you saying 'drifting' forward lets you preload?

Just trying to clarify.
 

andygrey

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Hi Vince







And most people do not tail on the backcast because most people haven't got a clue what is happening behind them, and their backcast has usually a significantly larger loop than their forward cast (another hint to why they tail more often on the forward ;)) Personally my worst tails are on my backcast....



Cheers

Lasse

Something I mentioned in post #41, though I think we could be heading back into the murky waters of if a railing loop is defined as when the fly and rod leg cross...
 

Guest666

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Hi Vince

Please don't use the clip to argue something that the clip is not showing :thumbs: I deliberatly waited longer before the forward cast, to show that there can be additionel rodbend due to the line straithening and the excess momentum will pull on the rodtip. As I have already written, I did not start the forward cast at that point, because it will not be visible....

And most people do not tail on the backcast because most people haven't got a clue what is happening behind them, and their backcast has usually a significantly larger loop than their forward cast (another hint to why they tail more often on the forward ;)) Personally my worst tails are on my backcast....

Cheers
Lasse
Lasse, I wasn't suggesting preload on the forward cast, the still clearly shows it is minor. The backcast showing significantly more is what I was offering. This is backed up by strain gauge data

Regards

Vince
 

karlsson

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Drifting tends to be in the direction of the cast, creep in the opposite, are you saying 'drifting' forward lets you preload?

Just trying to clarify.
Hi Alan

Yup, it "tends" to be....

Drift would be a moving the rod into a favorable place for ,the next cast with intent.

And no :eek:mg:

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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Hi Alan

Yup, it "tends" to be....

Drift would be a moving the rod into a favorable place for ,the next cast with intent.

And no :eek:mg:

Cheers
Lasse
Tends to be? i'm not sure we can communicate this thing without being clear on what direction drift, or creep goes in,

You guys are suggesting you can use preload, we all know the rod bends more a the end of the cast, thats obvious, the weight of the line bends it,

To exploit this, bending the rod more, you then need to move the rod forward? so you drift back, giving more rod travel, is this what you are saying?
 
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karlsson

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Lasse, I wasn't suggesting preload on the forward cast, the still clearly shows it is minor. The backcast showing significantly more is what I was offering. This is backed up by strain gauge data

Regards

Vince
Hi Vince

Do you have the data from my cast?

The reason you do not see it in the forward cast is still, and I stress this point, because I was not aiming to show it there :)

[ame="https://vimeo.com/54380731"]https://vimeo.com/54380731[/ame]

Cheers
Lasse
 

Guest666

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Lasse, we are furiously agreeing :D. I think I have said at least twice that there is no preload in the forward cast. By "still" I meant still picture. All I have said that there is more bend in the rod in the backcast and this makes the tip path more stable.

regards

Vince
 

karlsson

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Tends to be? i'm not sure we can communicate this thing without being clear on what direction drift, or creep goes in,
I thought I was pretty clear, sorry english is my third language and I do stumble at times.

Drift is a reposition of the rod during the unrolling of the loop dome with intent. In other words you mean to do it.

Creep is decreasing the casting angle and/or stroke length for the next cast without intent. in other words, you aren't aware that you are messing up your cast.

Clear enough?


You guys are suggesting you can use preload, we all know the rod bends more a the end of the cast, thats obvious, the weight of the line bends it,

To exploit this, bending the rod more, you then need to move the rod forward? so you drift back, giving more rod travel, is this what you are saying?
Not suggesting anything.

It's not the weight of the line, but the momentum of the line that pulls on the rodtip causing it to bend....
And it's not about bending the rod more, that one is easy, just rotate the dang thing faster and it bends more, everyone knows that, or at least they should know that.

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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I thought I was pretty clear, sorry english is my third language and I do stumble at times.

Drift is a reposition of the rod during the unrolling of the loop dome with intent. In other words you mean to do it.

Creep is decreasing the casting angle and/or stroke length for the next cast without intent. in other words, you aren't aware that you are messing up your cast.

Clear enough?
We all know what intention means, i think for this you could assume that it is an intentional movement, i'm still a few posts back trying to figure what your point is,
We also know that the rod bends when the line rolls out, and we all use it whether we call it preload or not, we can bend it more by shooting line into the back cast for example,

What is not clear is your definition of drift/creep, not whether we mean it or not, but the rather more basic sense of which direction they go in:confused:

If for example i want to exploit this 'preload' how do i do so without intentionally creeping the tip forward to do this?

I would suggest this is simply exactly what you do.
 

karlsson

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We all know what intention means, i think for this you could assume that it is an intentional movement, i'm still a few posts back trying to figure what your point is,
We also know that the rod bends when the line rolls out, and we all use it whether we call it preload or not, we can bend it more by shooting line into the back cast for example,

What is not clear is your definition of drift/creep, not whether we mean it or not, but the rather more basic sense of which direction they go in:confused:

If for example i want to exploit this 'preload' how do i do so without intentionally creeping the tip forward to do this?

I would suggest this is simply exactly what you do.
Alan, we also know that we can bend it less if we shoot line into the backcast and kill excess momentum, and not all people use the possibility of bend in the rod from momentum, far from it but hey, who cares :thumbs:

And the definition is quite clear, it does have to do with intention, not direction. Creep is the only defined fault in flycasting with it's own name, that's why you need intent in there.

And why would you want to exploit preload?

And as usual, you haven't got a clue as to what I do :thumbs:

Cheerios
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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And as usual, you haven't got a clue as to what I do
I would agree with that, i have no idea what point you were trying to make now:D

If your 'preload' cannot be exploited what is the point of mentioning it?

But i would say that 'creep' rather than being defined by whether we mean it or not, is rather crucially defined by which direction you do it, the former tells you whether its a casting fault, the latter tells you what it is in the first place:D

I'm going to add something for you to rip at, i use preload, and i also creep, and from what i can see the best casters in the world do also, they do of course use these with critical timing and to their advantage, i suspect you also do,

Preload is the rod bending before you bend it more by moving it in the opposite direction, i don't need movie clips or confusing words for anyone to understand this because its not that complicated,

With finite timing we can move the rod tip in the opposite direction from the line and increase rather than decrease the rod bend, i'd say thats exploiting preload, and i'd say we all do it to some degree, intentional creep if you like,

Where the real intention comes from in practical reality is preparing to do this, by sliding the rod tip with the line back or forward to where your tensioning creep can begin, the end of this movement is a fusion, as every move is maybe with the next

I don't think there is anything in this that you would disagree with? but i sometimes feel you would rather find something to argue with than build constructively on it.
 
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