I've noticed recently that when i'm casting and shoot the line out that my flies hit my fly line quite a lot. It never used to be an issue. Has anyone any tips that may help stop this?
Oddly enough, and I can't really figure out why, I am prone to tailing loops if I use one particular rod - an 8' 4 weight. If I try to do a longer than normal cast I can almost guarantee a tailing loop. Put the same line, leader and fly on a 9' rod and no tailing loops occur. Very strange.
I could be wrong here but I think that tailing loops are caused by the casting stroke not being in a straight line as in from the rod tip right through to the fly.
I've had a monumental amount of TLs in the past and still get them now and again.
Is there anyway that you can record yourself casting? You can then play it back and go from there.
This happens to me if I try to force the cast, into the wind typically. The result is knots in the tippet/ leader. I assume this is where the term 'wind knot' comes from?
I saw Glenda Powell at flyfest in cumbria a couple of weeks back. She was asked about tailing loops and demonstrated how this is most often caused by "creep".
"Creep" is when, after making the stop on the back cast, the rod creeps forward before the forward stroke is made.
She clearly showed, by purposefully creeping the rod forward, that this caused a tailing loop. Yet, when she held the rod still before making the forward cast, the tailing loop vanished.
She taught a simple trick to avoid creep. Make the back cast, stop the rod, then scream "don't move" !!!!
I've tried it myself and it really is true. Creep the rod, tailing loop. Don't creep, no tailing loop.
It's something I do pretty much as standard anyway.
That said, I should say "it's something I thought I did as standard anyway".
I took my new go pro out with me last week to try it out and filmed myself casting. One of those nightmare evenings when nothing seems to go how you want it to.
Quick review of the video showed the rod creeping before the forward cast. I was drifting no problem ... for a bit, then creeping forward !! Laziness and bad habits I guess and an embarrassing video review !!
It was the following day when I saw Glenda's show and while I knew creep was not good, I didn't put that and tailing loops together.
Video camera definately a good tool to scrutinise casts .... obviously not as good as having a casting instructor on hand though !!!
Mike heritage gave me a tip at the bfcc meet last Sunday. "Chase the loop". Accelerate into the back cast, make a stop, then follow the loop back with the rod tip. You are effectively learning to drift, and it overcomes creep, as described above. Smooth, late application of power in the forward cast, getting some "snap" at the end, also helps overcome tailing loops. Steve parkes described it to me as trying to break the rod when really going for distance. For us mere mortals it's the golfing equivalent of a late hit.
What would happen If that guy in your clip threw a 1 foot loop in his backcast instead of the 6 footer so it more mirrored the loop in the forward cast?
What would happen If that guy in your clip threw a 1 foot loop in his backcast instead of the 6 footer so it more mirrored the loop in the forward cast?
He gets away with it on the video because he takes out the slack in a controlled way. If he panicked and accelerated quickly then it would tail. For me, the tail is caused by a high rate of application of force on the rod tip and there are a lot of faults that cause it. I have made a hobby out of collecting them
A casting instructor will identify in 10 mins what you would spend a lifetime trying to figure out yourself, then you will spend a lifetime wishing you had the time to practice your casting, and carry on with your old mistakes. Good advice and practice cures casting faults
There are only 2 evolutionary reasons for grass to exist. One is to create river banks, the other is to create flat areas to practice casting on.
Any other use (pasture, etc) is purely accidental.
I can see what you are saying but isn't creep the movemetn of the rod tip rather than the hand?
Yes good point.
One quite common definition is 'starting the forward stroke early' or similar. The guy casting In the video has a wrist break at the end of the back cast and subsequent re-rotation at the start of the forward so yes he is starting his forward cast early, the arc is being 'crept forward' but the stroke is not being shortened so he's getting away with it. This is effectively 2 casting faults in one. I'd prefer to see an example where the wrists stays locked but the hand creeps forward.
EDIT!!!
Just found this GAIA definition... So spot on Vince.
Creep:
A casting Fault. The premature movement of the rod tip in the opposite direction of the unfurling loop, which results in the shortening of the next casting stroke and a closing of the casting arc.
The premature movement of the rod tip in the opposite direction of the unfurling loop, which results in the shortening of the next casting stroke and a closing of the casting arc.
One can feel a casting war comment thread in yer waters after a while on here. Personally, rarely casting more than thirty feet in a jungle of tree-lined streams I find it all a bit academic. You wave yer arm about a bit and it lands eventually where you want it too. Just learn to do it quickly. A line straightened downstream, if correctly judged lengthwise, is far better than all this false casting stuff. It bypasses quite neatly the tailing loop issue and only gives you one chance to catch a tree trout. Also the drag loads the rod for the forward cast. It's casting for dummies and I like it....
One can feel a casting war comment thread in yer waters after a while on here. Personally, rarely casting more than thirty feet in a jungle of tree-lined streams I find it all a bit academic. You wave yer arm about a bit and it lands eventually where you want it too. Just learn to do it quickly. A line straightened downstream, if correctly judged lengthwise, is far better than all this false casting stuff. It bypasses quite neatly the tailing loop issue. Also the drag loads the rod for the forward cast. It's casting for dummies and I like it....
Haha. Thanks, nice to put a name to it. I didn't expect it to be new, but I like to pick this knowledge up often by accident.. Its nice to uncover stuff for yourself but it's tempting to feast on everyone's experience.
Case in point. I have been fishing some free ponds that have desirable fish. They aren't stocked so you don't have so many fish per meter. I have tried to gather them together with a feast of bread and sweetcorn. Day four of two loaves of Lidls finest white & brown with some smached corn is off due to the weather. Three days with two baited and still not a touch? Standard practise not producing.
The point of 'learning to cast' is to know what 'should happen' so that when 'what should' happen can't happen, you're skilled enough to make an adjustment that still enables you to put a fly in front of a fish.
When on the back cast feel for the weight of the line, by the time you react to it and start the forward cast the leader will also have straightened out.
When you feel the weight of the line the rod will be under strain from the weight of the line, as you start your forward cast the rod is under even greater strain.
As you stop the forward cast this force will travel from the rod into the line giving it greater distance and better presentation (once you've stopped the rod, lower it gently out of harms way).
A fly rod is a wonderful thing we shouldn't use it like a stick
Jedi flyfishers who learnt from the master Ob1 Wan Kenobi have our own saying to remind us.
I don't think you ever feel the rod loading on the back cast on my 3# or under, even with the soft rods I use. It's all about learning timing for the length of line out.
In as much as using a 3wt and under often involves casting a very short line in cramped conditions that's unsurprising when the '3' still relates to 30ft of line.
I hesitate to go for another dip in the murk of tailing loop debates but.....
I too struggle to see how creep, in and of itself, would cause a tailing loop on the forward cast. OTOH I can see creep being associated with overpowering - dip in the tip and such. Symptom and disease thing.
I'm not even convinced that a bit of creep is inherently a bad thing. Given a choice between maintaining tension and eliminating any possibility of creep or line drop, I'll take tension. Talking in the field here, not the lab. Optimal v. Ideal.
If creep causes a tailing loop it should do it in both directions. Hands up all those with tails on the backcast.
Creep will only lead to a tailing loop if it reduces the casting arc beyond the minimum required to make the cast without the rod tip dipping below the straight line path.
People rarely creep on at the start of the back cast as they can see the line unfurling in front of them.
Plenty of people tail on the backcast, though they get away with it as you don't often see loops as tight on the back cast as you do on the forward cast so the rod and fly leg don't collide.
Pre-loading the forward cast from the back-cast is, in my opinion, a crock. I've seen very, very few videos of casts where any pre-load is 'picked-up' and maintained through the forward casting stroke.
Aitor or Lasse will be along soon to show the one video that does show it :thumbs:.
I still don't see why it should only happen consistently on the one rod I own out of several. Doesn't happen on the 10' 4, 5 & 6 weights, the 9' 4 & 5 weights. It's just that 8' 4 weight that I have a problem with. I really don't see that my casting action, cr*p though it may be, should differ enough to make the difference.
It's a Hardy Uniqua. Quite a snappy little rod. The others are Sage Z Axis, XP, Fulling Mill Gold Medal, Scierra, Orvis Western 2, a Greys and a Wychwood.
At short to medium distances the Hardy is fine, but as soon as I push it a bit further.........!
Very annoying - to the point at which I don't actually want to use the thing.
I should preface this by saying it's very difficult to make casting diagnostic without actually seeing you cast...
You say this happens when you go past 'medium' distances. This sounds like the cast could be collapsing on the back cast.
Shorter rods can need you to modify your casting stroke more than longer ones when you start to extend more head outside the tip. This is of course dependant on the action and line profile but only a thought.
Andy
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