Do Rod Rings Matter?

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,037
Ok, they matter, but does it matter what type is used?

My first rod had single leg Fujis all the way through. The one I happen to have in my hand has a stripper ring and the next one up is also a stripper ring. I don't know what they're lined with. The rest are double leg snake rings plus a chrome tip ring.

Single or double leg? People say they weigh the same but the extra whipping on the double leg adds weight (and time and cost).

Snake or full circle? Snakes are lighter but do they cause line slap? And what is line slap anyway?

Which rings have the least resistance?

Which wear faster - stainless steel, tungsten carbide, ceramic, chrome?

How many do we need?

Do we give a damn?
 
Last edited:

easker1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
8,000
Location
Highlands
some one tried a rod with the line through the centre I wonder if there are any still about? easker1
 

Rhithrogena

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2020
Messages
1,892
Good thread! Haven't seen a which ring ding-dong for a while....
I prefer lined single leg rings to snakes for fishing where distance is a boon, and especially if using heads where flyline joins have to go through the rings. I only have experience with the old fujis in this style, though.
I prefer the wire single leg rings to snakes, although I only have two rods with them on.
I would like to try some of the newish lined single leg rings (titanium zircon etc) so am interested in peoples thoughts on these.....
 

anzac

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
2,281
Location
Terra Firma
I have two thoughts about this. Firstly, I think the type of rings used is much of a muchness. I mean that it doesn't really matter as long as they do the job and do it well. With that in mind personal preference comes into play. Secondly, while weight is a consideration, I suspect friction (ring to line) may be a bigger one. Thinking through the dynamics of the cast (here we go again) I wonder if ring types induce more friction or do snake types. Friction equals drag which in theory negatively influences casting distance.
 

roadrunner1000

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
616
Location
Kent
Interesting post #31 and 39 , or anything from member Akos75 -

 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,037
For the hard of clicking, Akos75 post 39...

Maybe this could be interesting for some "rod freaks" like me, so here are my thoughts on guides (at least the short version :) ).

There are 3 different type of guides I consider using on our rods, all others have some serious drawback that disqualifies them: Hopkins&Holloway Thin Wire snakes (Sage uses them), freshwater (thin wire) Recoil single legs called RSF, and saltwater Recoil single legs called RSFX (these are the ones that come in black too, called RSFXB).

The Recoil RSF guides are the lightest (combined with thread and epoxy), the Hopkins guides are the second lightest and the saltwater recoils are the heaviest. The weight difference is very little though, if you have the same blank built with these guides and cast them side by side there is some difference in swing weight but barely measurable. By the way, the MOI system is the correct way to measure swing weight, the results are consistent if you have the ability to fill the data sheet of the calculator properly and you have a decent scale for the measuring.

Regarding durability: the Hopkins&Holloway guides are more durable, they are less prone to groove and I have never heard of problems with rust in saltwater. The Recoils sometimes groove very easily but they can't be crushed as they bend. So durability is a tie for me between all these three guides.

Line shooting: the Hopkins&Holloway guides win here, no question. They have a slicker surface and the Recoils shoot worse, most likely because they are vibrating a bit (this is just a hypothesis though). The difference in distance is there for sure.

Sound: this one goes to the Hopkins&Holloway guides as well. Recoils can be annoying. The sound comes from vibrating but it seems to have something to do with the air humidity too. Sometimes it is there, sometimes not. We used to use only Recoils on our rods, the whole experimenting started with me building myself a T6 for night fishing. I wanted to have a rod with silent guides so I used the thin wire Hopkins&Holloway guides. I was very surprised that the rod haven't felt any heavier than the production rods with the Recoils. So the measuring started...

Overall feel: this is where it gets interesting and this confused me for years. It looks like the Hopkins&Holloway guides have a much better feel while casting. Most likely because they don't vibrate and the line "connects" more to the blank somehow. On the other hand they stiffen the blanks a bit. This could be an advantage too, it sure is on the higher line weight rods. But they change the feel of the lighter weight blanks significantly. As I wrote before the stiffer tip on the lighter line weight blanks forces the rod to bend deeper, so despite being stiffer the rod will feel slower. There is no "winner" here, they are just different. I have a suggestion for every rod model we produce. Some work good with both, some don't.

So it is not necessarily true that the Recoils are the better guides, just because they are a bit more expensive. I don't think Sage only uses the Hopkins&Holloway guides because they are cheaper. The blanks are designed around those guides and they are part of the "Sage feel".

Cheers,

Ákos
 

mackiia1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 2, 2011
Messages
3,022
Location
Waterford - Ireland
Some nymphing rods have single legged rings but have a double legged ring 2nd from top to help avoid a long leader wrapping around the ring butt - that's what's claimed anyways.
My rod doesn't have this feature and I have noticed that at times this is exactly what happens me .
I know this is probably my own fault as I am only beginning to get to grips with fishing very long leaders when nymphing and I wonder would a double legged ring really help.
 

boisker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
3,117
Location
Devon
I’ve bought 2 Stickman rods from Akos... and after enquiring / discussing with Akos about the differences between the guides I’ve then done the sensible thing for me... and gone with Ákos’s advice:)
Akos has played with lots a guides, with differing sizes, to get the rod he desires... and it does make a difference.
i have his P5... the guides are slightly smaller than you would expect, and it makes a difference..
hard to explain... I went with his recommendation of recoils, which combined with the slightly smaller guides results in it feeling like it doesn’t shoot quite as easily/smoothly as some rods (it’s all relative... ‘the P5’ still casts a full line into the backing and will easily shoot from 50’ out to 70’)... but it’s a wonderful feeling rod, you feel incredibly ‘connected’ to the line and fly...

so, yes, guides make a difference...
 
Last edited:

original cormorant

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 3, 2016
Messages
1,656
Just a piece of pedantry (or maybe not) that was recently posted on the NA forum
" there is never more than one stripper guide on a rod. The others are either taming guides or transition guides. which can be either double or single foot in configuration"
 

sean freeman

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
1,354
Location
Manchester
I too followed Akos sage advice and I’ve not disliked one of his rods yet! I have a P5 with recoils and a T6 with H&H snakes. The P5 is just a brilliant rod that I favour for dry fly on bigger rivers or rivers with sizeable fish like the Clyde or Annan, it feels more like a #4 in its delicacy and swingweight. I do use it with a team of wets or shrimp/scuds on hill lochs too though.

I can’t get over the versatility of the T6, excellent when a fish rises 15-20ft away but with a double haul it’ll put out a full line, not that I’d ever need to do that in an actual fishing situation but it’s a very impressive rod. It’s definitely quieter than the P5 but I’ve never really been bothered by the sound recoils make, I may even quite like it! Either way both are coming to NZ with me when the borders open, they’re just solid fishing rods.

I also have an 8’6” P4 on the way but I haven’t discussed build options with Akos yet as he’s been finalising the taper.
Apologies for waxing lyrical about Stickman’s but they really are brilliant, although I know they won’t click with everyone obviously!

Sean
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
47,264
I have recoils on my Loomis, you can press them down and they pop back up, no idea why though :unsure:
 

bobmiddlepoint

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2017
Messages
3,262
Location
Where I want to be
Tip rings.
When I were a lad they were (on most of the rods I owned) lined rings. I'd go as far as to say that wire tip rings were the cheap option. Nowadays nearly every rod has a wire tip ring of some sort and I really don't like them. The wire on almost all of these rings is thinner in diameter than the fly line. This means when the rod and line are at an angle to each other (high rod when dibbling or low rod along the bank to avoid wind or guide line around obstacles during the retrieve) that the line is forced to bend around the very fine wire. With some softer lines I can feel them sticking on the tip ring as I dibble. While casting and playing in theory the tip will be pointing at the line and therefore it shouldn't be such an issue but fish do unexpected things and timing can be off.

I am sure thin wire tip rings are not as kind on fly lines as fatter lined tip rings. I know lined ones feel smoother in fishing for me and I suspect fly lines last longer with them.

It's a pet theory of mine, can you tell?

I know some folk babble on about the extra weight of a lined tip ring but it has never bothered me.


Andy
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,037
Tip rings.

I know some folk babble on about the extra weight of a lined tip ring but it has never bothered me.

It will be weight, not so much the absolute dead weight but swing weight. The extra weight might be small but as it's at the end of the rod and swing weight is a function of the square of the distance from the butt, I imagine it must be noticeable.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,037
This is from the British Fly Casting Club (my bold)

Suggested Fuji black single leg ring spacings starting from tip ring BMOT6 x 2.4, BOG6 – 110,150mm, BOG7 – 170, 205, 270mm, BOG10 – 310, 330, 330mm, BNOG16 triple leg (fit single leg up blank) – 330mm. The tip ring is low to minimize tip twist and should be epoxy glued on. Single leg intermediates keep the line off the rod when hauling, the butt ring should be angled in the direction of hauling and all may be held on by insulation tape in the short term. These rings are usually strong enough to withstand a direct hit with the line.

Interesting that Sage use use snakes on their fast, casting rods.
 

AntonB

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
69
For wear and performance you cannot beat single leg Fujis.I fish a lot, double hauling on big lakes(nearly every day for the last 50 years). Normark and Carbotecs were my go to rods and they all had Fujis. Line slap from modern snakes. Pity you rarely see Fuji single legs and tips on modern rods...seems not the trendy thing to have anymore.
 
Last edited:

codyarrow

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
4,655
It will be weight, not so much the absolute dead weight but swing weight. The extra weight might be small but as it's at the end of the rod and swing weight is a function of the square of the distance from the butt, I imagine it must be noticeable.
You can shave weight off a rod build with choice of rings. The weight difference is small, but to rod builders it may be huge in the mind with the swing weight factor.
I'm more concerned with the aesthetic and tend to use minima's (they are light anyway). The rings are lined, including the tip. I did build one rod with standard pacbay single legs and I believe there is a bit more friction on the line. Not that this does much to distance in real fishing terms.
 

Elwyman

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2006
Messages
793
Location
North Wales
Always been happy with snake rings, but I quite liked the single leg Fuji rings I used when I built a rod from a Fibatube blank in the 80s.

I borrowed a Greys rod with the single leg rings recently.....I found the scraping noise from the line quite annoying, and they looked a bit cheap IMO.
 

roadrunner1000

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
616
Location
Kent
I’ve bought 2 Stickman rods from Akos... and after enquiring / discussing with Akos about the differences between the guides I’ve then done the sensible thing for me... and gone with Ákos’s advice:)
Akos has played with lots a guides, with differing sizes, to get the rod he desires... and it does make a difference.
i have his P5... the guides are slightly smaller than you would expect, and it makes a difference..
hard to explain... I went with his recommendation of recoils, which combined with the slightly smaller guides results in it feeling like it doesn’t shoot quite as easily/smoothly as some rods (it’s all relative... ‘the P5’ still casts a full line into the backing and will easily shoot from 50-70’ of line)... but it’s a wonderful feeling rod, you feel incredibly ‘connected’ to the line and fly...

so, yes, guides make a difference...
Perhaps we should start a Stickman thread :) .

I bought a Ti5 (10ft 5w) earlier this year. Can't fault it for performance or build quality .
A 9ft 6in T7 arrived on Monday. I won't fish it until my local lake cools down but once again the build quality is exceptional (blue wraps, black reel seat & spacer).
I sold three 'factory' rods to help fund my two purchases. I doubt that I'll buy another big name flyrod.
 

Latest posts

Top