Fly fishing cost and future generations

[ohanzee]

Historically the Anti's win ? Whether you agree or not with the various activities that have gone, or are in trouble. In most cases, that they were / are "Minority" sports that were "isolated" and left unsupported.
Angling in general has been targeted for many years, but because of its large numbers, has so far survived. At least 2020 has seen a small revival in numbers, that may help in the future.
Think 1st ? These were all "sports" that were / are, targeted -

Fox hunting - classed as elitist and cruel, but foxes do need to be "controlled".

Hare coursing - Poor mans fox hunting ?

Pistol shooting - Minority sport, but imposed and no realistic compensation given, only alternative, store them abroad ! (Blame Dunblaine) . For many years our Olympic Team have had to travel to France for "practice", at a cost !

Bow hunting - No wildlife to be hunted in this country, due to targeted negative publicity - there were only two clubs in the country that did hunt and these were not supported by "other" sporting groups, divide and conquer ?

Game shooting - Lots of "anti's try to disrupt organised days. Targeted wilful damage to pens and equipment.

Duck / waterfowl hunting - a Ban on lead shot for shotguns for any of these or for use near water. Replacements were all more expensive and in the case of Steel shot, a poor substitute. Bismuth was the best at the time, but 10x more expensive - isolate by expense.

Guns in general - Since Hungerford, a lot more difficult to get a licence and renew, again cost have gone up - read posts on renewals.

Fishing !!! Targeted by Anti's over many years, from physical and verbal abuse to throwing rocks at floats or wading through fishing areas.

Canoeing ! The deliberate, focused agenda by the Canoe Union to gain "free access" for all, pitting one group against another - Bad for both .

There are many other examples. In a lot of cases the Anti's agenda is formed by mis information. The best environmental police are those that "use" the countryside. Unfortunately a lot of the Anti's are made up of idealistic people who do not realise their impact on the land and it's wildlife -
I give you "The MInk" !!! Released by Idealistic Idiots, who have caused decades of environmental mayhem.
No answers to this issue but as posted, unless we are ALL vigilant in 10 to 15 years, it will be illegal to fish !

Just a small point, populations of mink from escapees from mink farms were already thriving long before anti's existed.

 

[BobP]

Just a small point, populations of mink from escapees from mink farms were already thriving long before anti's existed.

Seeing as mink are not native to this country they must have got out, or been let out, from somewhere. Any ideas as to where that might have been?

 

[PaulD]

Seeing as mink are not native to this country they must have got out, or been let out, from somewhere. Any ideas as to where that might have been?

1998 . . . New Forest

BBC News | UK | Anti-fur campaigners slam mink release

1998 - North Staffordshire

BBC News | UK | Activists release 8,000 mink

 

[LukeNZ]

Sounds great. Are there no restrictions at all? ie access is always open to any angler with a licence? No deals between guides and landowners?

All water can be accessed by anyone. If you can’t gain access over someone’s property by simply asking. Then just go in at any point publicly accessible and remain within he Queens chain on water that passes through private land.

There is no private fishing, as trout cannot be bought or sold. All natural water belongs to the crown/public. Stocking a man made pond is not possible, as you cannot buy trout, and charging to catch them is not possible, because you cannot sell trout.

 

[Overmiwadrers]

Angling pressure is what drives costs up. In the UK, somebody always owns the water, and based on pressure levels, the cost goes up, obviously.
Here in NZ all water is owned by everyone. We keep our population at a healthy level.
We buy a cheap daily, weekly or annual license, depending on how keen you are, which essentially covers national resource management snd improvement. You can fish anywhere you want.
UK fishing is unfair and elitist - in that, you all can't fish anywhere you want. The best waters cost a fortune, if you can get on at all. Totally unfair and fcked up forever more.

Maybe unfair but This country is very crowded and if many of our rivers had unrestricted access they would be trashed and fished out in no time . In many parts of the country there is good cheap fishing but you have to look for it . My experience is that for the majority of folks if they don’t have to work and pay for it they don’t respect it . The Posh rivers are expensive and a little elitist . But they are looked after . I put my name down ten years ago for one posh local river , and had a letter the other day to say I am now 2nd on the list . Will it be expensive hell yes but as I’m over 60 and worked hard all my life and for many years only dreamed of fishing in places like that now I am in a position to I’ll enjoy every minute when the letter comes .

OMW

 

[LukeNZ]

Maybe unfair but This country is very crowded and if many of our rivers had unrestricted access they would be trashed and fished out in no time . In many parts of the country there is good cheap fishing but you have to look for it . My experience is that for the majority of folks if they don’t have to work and pay for it they don’t respect it . The Posh rivers are expensive and a little elitist . But they are looked after . I put my name down ten years ago for one posh local river , and had a letter the other day to say I am now 2nd on the list . Will it be expensive hell yes but as I’m over 60 and worked hard all my life and for many years only dreamed of fishing in places like that now I am in a position to I’ll enjoy every minute when the letter comes .

OMW

Pretty sad when you are not allowed to enjoy all your country’s rivers, along with the next man.

Emigration was my solution to that issue

 

[skyeman1]

All water can be accessed by anyone. If you can’t gain access over someone’s property by simply asking. Then just go in at any point publicly accessible and remain within he Queens chain on water that passes through private land.

There is no private fishing, as trout cannot be bought or sold. All natural water belongs to the crown/public. Stocking a man made pond is not possible, as you cannot buy trout, and charging to catch them is not possible, because you cannot sell trout.

Are you certain that some prime waters, maybe close to upmarket lodges, are so easily accessible? I'd have thought that such lodges and their guides would be tempted to do whatever is necessary to restrict access so that guests don't find themselves fishing water already covered. Maybe I'm just being cynical about some folk in the "Overseas Anglers" business.

 

[PaulD]

Maybe unfair but This country is very crowded and if many of our rivers had unrestricted access they would be trashed and fished out in no time .

OMW

This is a very valid point. The UK has a population density of 275 people per km sq - England 432 per km sq.

New Zealand's density is 15 people per square kilometre.

When you consider that historically, much of our legal framework and social structures have been founded upon ownership of land and property, rights of access and usage is bound to be fundamentally different.

 

[wjg]

Reading this, I am reminded of how inexpensive, and undervalued sport fishing is in my Province. All water is public and any private property can be crossed "non-destructively" to reach waters for fishing. Angling licence cost includes the Wildlife Conservation Fund Fee. Trout and salmon can be fished Island wide for the tax included sum of $34.50 CAD or 20£. Youth and seniors $23.00 per year and 5 day family licences are available, after 1 May for $11.50. Same costs to non-residents.
These days I do see more younger than older fishers on the streams with fly rod in hand. Outside of the regulated salmon or extended season steelhead, C&R fishermen are in the definite minority. My MIL cannot understand why I would throw away good food.

 

[anzac]

Perhaps this is a tangential thought,, but it is relevant -- at least in my mind.

Resource and environment management is necessary regardless of population density. My limited experience in the US has been that hunting and fishing on public lands is essentially free. Each state requires the purchase of annual licenses and stamps for certain species (salmon in California for instance), and establishes appropriate bag limits and seasons. These are enforced by wardens with full police powers. It makes sense and works for theAristocratic Would it work in the UK? I don't know. For me, the question is why such distinctly different systems of fishery management? I suspect that the answer is that our system essentially evolved from feudal and later Aristocratic rights of ownership and governance.

If that is true, then imaginably it is either too late in the game to change the rules and referee, or we need a paradigm change in the entire structure of our laws and even our government.

 

[JohnH]

Seeing as mink are not native to this country they must have got out, or been let out, from somewhere. Any ideas as to where that might have been?

Been in the countryside for many years. This is a straight lift from my copy of the book associated with the "Jack's Game" TV series, published in 1984. Specifically the chapter on minkhunting by Ian Coghill. He and his packs of hounds were based in the West Midlands;

"When mink first began escaping from fur farms they aroused little concern as their extremely violent courtship behaviour made them difficult and uncertain breeders in unnatural conditions. These early escapes were considered merely as interesting, but definitely local, problems which would soon burn themselves out. Too late it was recognised that the wild mink bred with amazing efficiency, and the Ministry of Agriculture began a campaign of eradication. This was, as usual, too little too late, and the mink continued to increase and spread steadily. Eventually the Ministry was forced to give up its costly and, as it proved, pointless efforts and admit that eradication was impossible....it was by then clear that overall control and some local eradication were the best that could be achieved..."

 

[Hardrar]

Showing my age I guess and feeling nostalgic but remember fishing 2 a week for pleasure and comps every other weekend.
I earned considerably less then but seemed to be able to afford it. Granted didn't have the expensive gear I have now.

Anyway in 40s now and realised sadly that just fish dates of comps now. Frankly because of the costs involved in hiring a boat etc. The break down something like £50 a rod ur lunch 5 fiver, car fuel 10 quid, tippet flies lost 10er Yes tie my own but even so. If fishing the bank ticket price halves to 25 quid. ( Will mention practise days of comps accommodation etc...)

But boils down to boat day is £75 and bank £50.

The cost of fishing the same amount of times back in my twenties at today's prices would be like 600 quid a month that's quite a chuck of disposable income to have much less the youngsters of today.

Very few places that I know offer the suggestion of cheap fishing these days. Its no wander there is a serious decline in fly fishing in general. The only way I see things improving is if ticket prices drop and offer more catch and release. Ie stock stays in the lake. Basically the more affordable the fishing means more anglers likely to fish and take a friend over the course of a season overall the fishery would be better off and more angling actually gets done.

That’s a total rip off tbh, I’m in several River syndicates and some are less than that for a full year, no limits on how often you can go and two allow a guest to accompany you.

 

[ohanzee]

Seeing as mink are not native to this country they must have got out, or been let out, from somewhere. Any ideas as to where that might have been?

There were escapees from a mink farm near Glasgow about 50 years ago, caused a minor fuss at the time, I'm sure this was pretty widespread, if a mink can get through a gap they all can, they were wild there from about that time.

 

[ohanzee]

Perhaps this is a tangential thought,, but it is relevant -- at least in my mind.

Resource and environment management is necessary regardless of population density. My limited experience in the US has been that hunting and fishing on public lands is essentially free. Each state requires the purchase of annual licenses and stamps for certain species (salmon in California for instance), and establishes appropriate bag limits and seasons. These are enforced by wardens with full police powers. It makes sense and works for theAristocratic Would it work in the UK? I don't know. For me, the question is why such distinctly different systems of fishery management? I suspect that the answer is that our system essentially evolved from feudal and later Aristocratic rights of ownership and governance.

If that is true, then imaginably it is either too late in the game to change the rules and referee, or we need a paradigm change in the entire structure of our laws and even our government.

The Scottish land reform bill shows that historic aristocratic rights can be changed.

 

[LukeNZ]

Are you certain that some prime waters, maybe close to upmarket lodges, are so easily accessible? I'd have thought that such lodges and their guides would be tempted to do whatever is necessary to restrict access so that guests don't find themselves fishing water already covered. Maybe I'm just being cynical about some folk in the "Overseas Anglers" business.

Lodges and guides take you somewhere nobody else bothers with, you catch a couple fish, believe it was exclusive because you were charged a lot, and you go home happy and non the wiser..

Which ‘exclusive’ water did you have in mind? I have fished a lot of the South Island rivers having spent 12 years there fishing. And have had 14 years fishing North Island.

A Taupo region licence covers you for Lake Taupo (it is very large..) and all the rivers that run into it (Tongariro etc..) $100 or so, for the year. The national fishing license costs about the same and covers you for everything else on both island’s.

I have seen ads for various lodges in NZ, but they don’t have rights to any rivers that can’t be fished with standard NZ licences, which you need to buy anyway. You can buy a license on annual, weekly, or just a daily tariff. Cheaper than chips!

I think the annual licence is about $30 more per annum if you are not an NZ resident.

There is so much water and so few people, it probably just seems exclusive when you have a guide chirping sweet nothings in your ear for 6 hours a day...

The river at the back of my house - the Tukituki, has 300km of fishable bank, and though it is supposedly popular and well known to trout fishermen in NZ and worldwide, along with all the other rivers of my region (Mohaka, Ngarororo, Tutaikuri, Waipawa, Tukituki etc..), I rarely see anybody else fishing (I fish about 3 or 4 times a week..).

A 2 hour drive, and I am on the central plateau fishing the Tongariro, Tauranga-Taupo, and all the famous Taupo rivers and lakes.

Our population is tiny, and even more so, relative to the many 1000’s of km of fishing opportunities and the low actual number of kiwi fly fishermen.

It is still a fly fishing Eldorado, and long may it continue to be. I don’t think it will change or be spoiled in my lifetime - that is exactly why I came here; don’t have to worry about it, and I can lead a high quality fly fishing way of life easily, till the end.