Fly life explanation?

ejw

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There used to be warnings on flea collars about letting your dog swim with it on ? It said that it could damage the invertibrate / environment. I have not had a working dog for 20 years now, so it is not a "new" topic, but people do need reminding of the issue, especially dog owners who use footpaths around water.
Nowadays there is not a flea collar to take off, so spotting an animal who can pollute a waterway is now impossible.
Shame that the "suppliers" cannot be prosecuted for pollution, like farmers or owners of "outfalls".
 

BobP

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I am more than a bit dubious about this. Fine, there are 10 million dogs and about 11 million cats in this country so let's break it down a bit. For instance, when was the last time anyone saw a cat swimming? I've had several cats over the years and not one of them would go anywhere near water no matter what. A large proportion of those cats will be urban dwellers and so would have little or no access to rivers.

Next, a large proportion of the dog population will also be in the urban environment and would also have very limited access to watercourses on any but very seldom occasions. I doubt that too many urban dog owners would be happy taking a wet and muddy dog home as it almost certainly lives in the house.

I have three working spaniels and this spring needed a tick treatment which also kills fleas. I gave one dog one three month treatment and didn't see another tick on any of the three until October. The treatment was in the form of one palatable tablet so I fail to see how that can get into river. None of the dogs have had fleas so no treatment was required there.

The amount of active ingredient in any flea treatment must be very small so I wonder how many doses would be needed to affect the thousands of kilometres of river we have in this country as seems to be claimed.
 

catzrob

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Next, a large proportion of the dog population will also be in the urban environment and would also have very limited access to watercourses on any but very seldom occasions. I doubt that too many urban dog owners would be happy taking a wet and muddy dog home as it almost certainly lives in the house.

The amount of active ingredient in any flea treatment must be very small so I wonder how many doses would be needed to affect the thousands of kilometres of river we have in this country as seems to be claimed.

I agree with the need to be sceptical but the article does directly address two of those points
- bathing dogs domestically puts the stuff into sewers and from there into rivers, so urban dogs are part of this too
- "One flea treatment of a medium-sized dog with imidacloprid contains enough pesticide to kill 60 million bees", so not in terms of volume needs to go into rivers to seriously affect insect life.

That said their link from flea treatments to river levels is that they can't think where else the stuff would be coming from, so they might just be missing a source. There doesn't seem much doubt the stuff is in rivers though.
 
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GEK79

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I agree with the need to be sceptical but the article does directly address two of those points
- bathing dogs domestically puts the stuff into sewers and from there into rivers, so urban dogs are part of this too
- "One flea treatment of a medium-sized dog with imidacloprid contains enough pesticide to kill 60 million bees", so not in terms of volume needs to go into rivers to seriously affect insect life.

That said their link from flea treatments to river levels is that they can't think where else the stuff would be coming from, so they might just be missing a source. There doesn't seem much doubt the stuff is in rivers though.
Its possible the factories making these various treatments are running excess into the waterways... I wonder if the factories where the treatments are made were analysed to see where the waste is going.. Just an idea.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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I am more than a bit dubious about this.

The washing of pets was already known to flush fipronil into sewers and then rivers, while dogs swimming in rivers provides another pathway for contamination. “It has to be the flea treatments causing the pollution,” Goulson said. “Really, there’s no other conceivable source.”

The amount of active ingredient in any flea treatment must be very small so I wonder how many doses would be needed to affect the thousands of kilometres of river we have in this country as seems to be claimed.

“The problem is these chemicals are so potent,” he said, even at tiny concentrations. “We would expect them to be having significant impacts on insect life in rivers.” One flea treatment of a medium-sized dog with imidacloprid contains enough pesticide to kill 60 million bees, he said.
 

catzrob

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Its possible the factories making these various treatments are running excess into the waterways... I wonder if the factories where the treatments are made were analysed to see where the waste is going.. Just an idea.
That's true. It might not be the treatments but the factories. The problem is still basically the same though - too much flea treatment.
 
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GEK79

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That's true. It might not be the treatments but the factories. The problem is still basically the same though - too much flea treatment.
Sadly lad not many ways of solving it.. The industry makes huge amounts of money from the product.. Shaving animals so they have no fur probably frowned upon.. Will anyone try and stop this.. Sadly I don't think so.. Its another blow for our precious waterways.. What will they say when we have no life in the waters.
 

bobmiddlepoint

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I have three working spaniels and this spring needed a tick treatment which also kills fleas. I gave one dog one three month treatment and didn't see another tick on any of the three until October. The treatment was in the form of one palatable tablet so I fail to see how that can get into river. None of the dogs have had fleas so no treatment was required there.

Do you dogs not excrete anything?
Everything flows downhill, it's all going into a river somewhere eventually.


Andy
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Do you dogs not excrete anything?
Everything flows downhill, it's all going into a river somewhere eventually.


Andy

Indeed.

"Fipronil was detected in 99% of samples and a highly toxic breakdown product called fipronil sulfone was found in 97%. "

If the metabolites are even more toxic than the parent drug...

From widdle against the lamp-post... to rain washing it down the drain... and into the river...
 

BobP

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There are scores, if not hundreds, of horses where I live. One horse can "dump" more on the ground in a day than my three dogs do in a week. I am quite sure horse owners treat their animals with all sorts of antibiotics and remedies which is why I try to prevent my dogs from having a little snack of recycled grass.

I'm sorry, but I just do not see that dogs can be blamed for the lack of inverts in the thousands of miles of rivers in the UK. I think there are lots of other causes for the decline that are much less palatable to the Guardian and their readers. Typical hysterical headline from that particular rag too. "Pet flea treatment poisoning rivers."
 

Cap'n Fishy

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There are scores, if not hundreds, of horses where I live. One horse can "dump" more on the ground in a day than my three dogs do in a week. I am quite sure horse owners treat their animals with all sorts of antibiotics and remedies which is why I try to prevent my dogs from having a little snack of recycled grass.

I'm sorry, but I just do not see that dogs can be blamed for the lack of inverts in the thousands of miles of rivers in the UK. I think there are lots of other causes for the decline that are much less palatable to the Guardian and their readers. Typical hysterical headline from that particular rag too. "Pet flea treatment poisoning rivers."

Strawman argument.

Antibiotics are not insecticides. It is specific insecticides that are being identified here. Antibiotics kill bacteria. Insecticides kill insects. There are many reasons for the reduction in insect life throughout Europe. If this is a serious contributor in some areas, it needs addressed. Saying it's not the only reason is not an excuse to ignore it.

No one is blaming the dogs and cats. Dogs and cats don't buy and administer flea medicines to themselves. Their owners give the insecticides to their pets. Loads of animals live their whole lives while flea-ridden. Deal with it!
 
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taffy1

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I wonder how many cats & dogs there are in places like Canada & America? Are their water courses being affected in the same way as ours, if these animals are being treated with the same flea treatments?

Edit: Fipronil is banned in the US of A.
 
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codyarrow

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900 million chickens consumed in the Uk. Seems some may be treated with the stuff. I have no idea if this is the answer or not. Personally I try to treat my animals as little as possible. The cats get nothing, the dog gets a treatment after the first tick. Lucky for them, and us, they do not suffer from fleas as the density of other pets is low in the area.
 

boisker

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I wonder how many cats & dogs there are in places like Canada & America? Are their water courses being affected in the same way as ours, if these animals are being treated with the same flea treatments?

Edit: Fipronil is banned in the US of A.

I like random and pointless questions like that 😂
a quick google shows there are an estimated 9.8 million dogs in the U.K. and 76 million in the US... but it’s 40x larger... so a sh!t load more dogs per ha in the UK
or each dog has in the U.K. 0.024km compared to 0.129 in the US...

not sure that helps us understand whether flea treatments are affecting fish in the U.K. though😂
 
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Steven kermode

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my local river has become a dog toilet! In the last fifteen years or so it's got steadily worse!
They put their dogs in the river regularly!
Often within yards of where I'm fishing!
There are so many! it makes you feel as if your fishing in a dog bathing area!!
not to mention the discarded doggy bags, often hung on branches!
If no one is looking they often don't bother to pick it up!
Having fished there since I was a boy!
I'm now the one who feels out of place!
 
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Steven kermode

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my local river has become a dog toilet! In the last fifteen years or so it's got steadily worse!
They put their dogs in the river regularly!
Often within yards of where I'm fishing!
There are so many! it makes you feel as if your fishing in a dog bathing area!!
not to mention the discarded doggy bags, often hung on branches!
If no one is looking they often don't bother to pick it up!
Having fished there since I was a boy!
I'm now the one who feels out of place!
I was fishing a favorite spot last year, I approached the water carefully, and knelt down
to tye on a fly and survey the water quietly when a large dog came bounding towards me!
intent on jumping in. So I shouted, he stopped,! followed by his female owner.
who said to me! ahh but he always swims there!!
I simply said I was there first!! at which she made a disparaging remark and walked on!
Don't we go fishing to avoid the petty ignorance of humanity?
 

boisker

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I was fishing a favorite spot last year, I approached the water carefully, and knelt down
to tye on a fly and survey the water quietly when a large dog came bounding towards me!
intent on jumping in. So I shouted, he stopped,! followed by his female owner.
who said to me! ahh but he always swims there!!
I simply said I was there first!! at which she made a disparaging remark and walked on!
Don't we go fishing to avoid the petty ignorance of humanity?

I had more problems with swans and ducks than dogs this season:)
 
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