Is this cheating?

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
8,477
Location
Wiltshire
I think a lady angler landing a 32 lb pike on a buzzer is a very isolated incident indeed. Catching tiddlers like your 18 lb'er is neither here nor there.:fish:
No, the point is that it is not that unusual to catch pike, even good ones, on small flies intended for trout. The 18lb fish was not the only pike I caught on a buzzer, but it was the biggest. I partnered a guy at Chew in a boat comp who hooked into a decent sized pike and was determined to get it into the boat despite the fact that it wouldn't have counted. We lost 30 minutes of fishing time while he farted around with that fish. I kept on at him to break off so we could get back to doing what we were there for. The inevitable happened of course, and he then spent the next four hours muttering about how big he thought the pike was.

Surprisingly enough, neither of us did any good in the competition.
 

Wee Jimmy

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,408
Location
Fife
I’ve caught the odd pike pulling wet flies for sea trout on Loch Lomond.Even Had one take a dry mayfly at the lake but that doesn’t mean I would seriously consider either of those methods if I was deliberately setting out to catch them.Like I said,it’s incidental,nothing more.
 

suzuki15hp

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
1,286
No, the point is that it is not that unusual to catch pike, even good ones, on small flies intended for trout. The 18lb fish was not the only pike I caught on a buzzer, but it was the biggest. I partnered a guy at Chew in a boat comp who hooked into a decent sized pike and was determined to get it into the boat despite the fact that it wouldn't have counted. We lost 30 minutes of fishing time while he farted around with that fish. I kept on at him to break off so we could get back to doing what we were there for. The inevitable happened of course, and he then spent the next four hours muttering about how big he thought the pike was.

Surprisingly enough, neither of us did any good in the competition.
Yes incidental. You never set out to catch the pike in the first place. Catching the pike was incidental to your main objective.

incidental
/ɪnsɪˈdɛnt(ə)l/

adjective
1.
happening as a minor accompaniment to something else.
 

eddleston123

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
8,904
Location
Peebles, Scottish Borders
I thought a baby doll was wool wound around the shank to represent a wasp or docken grub?

Al

Hi Al,

Probably a good imitation of a wasp or docken grub, but most Stillwater anglers fish strip the fly at some two feet per second.

Perhaps a docken grub with a rocket up its ar##

Maybe it would catch as many trout fished naturally, ie static.




Douglas
 

speytime

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
6,400
Location
West Lothian Scotland
Hi Al,

Probably a good imitation of a wasp or docken grub, but most Stillwater anglers fish strip the fly at some two feet per second.

Perhaps a docken grub with a rocket up its ar##

Maybe it would catch as many trout fished naturally, ie static.




Douglas
Hi Douglas I'm not familiar with them being used in rainbow trout fishing, the baby doll I'm thinking of was fished in burns/rivers afaik it existed long time before stocked rainbows were available.
I had a short spell of fly tying some 38/40 years ago that's when I learned about them.

I've just googled them and had a look at the modern baby doll, the ones I tied as a kid didn't look like them more a representation of grub, wound with heavy wool for a ribbed effect, no tail and a brown head, I've got a few somewhere I'll post a couple of photos over the next day or two.

Cheers Al
 
Last edited:

eddleston123

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
8,904
Location
Peebles, Scottish Borders
I have never fished a Baby Doll in a burn/stream, but it would be interesting.

I fish a few burns that may be perfect for this.

Next season, I'll give it a try.

A.T.B




Douglas
 

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
8,477
Location
Wiltshire
The Baby Doll as used in rainbow trout fishing back in the 1970's was the pro fly dresser's dream. It was cheap as chips re materials, took less than three minutes to tie and had a limited life span as once the wool got grubby it no longer worked.

The dressing used the bright fluorescent white wool as used for knitting baby clothes. A ball of that cost about 50p and you could tie hundreds of BDs with one ball.

There were a few spin-offs, the Peppermint Doll being the most popular. That used Fluorescent green wool over the back of the fly.

The fly sank without trace during the 1980's.
 

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
8,477
Location
Wiltshire
Yes incidental. You never set out to catch the pike in the first place. Catching the pike was incidental to your main objective.

incidental
/ɪnsɪˈdɛnt(ə)l/

adjective
1.
happening as a minor accompaniment to something else.
I do know what incidental means, so the English lesson is not required.

Perhaps you would be better advised to read your post above and my response to it and see if you can understand it. You stated that the catching of a 32lb pike on a buzzer is a very isolated incident. If one wants to cut right down to it, the catching of a 32lbs pike by any means is an isolated incident, there being relatively few pike of that size around.

I stated, quite correctly, that catching pike on flies meant for other species is not as uncommon as many think. Incidental it may very well be, but it is not as rare and event as all that.
 

speytime

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
6,400
Location
West Lothian Scotland
The Baby Doll as used in rainbow trout fishing back in the 1970's was the pro fly dresser's dream. It was cheap as chips re materials, took less than three minutes to tie and had a limited life span as once the wool got grubby it no longer worked.

The dressing used the bright fluorescent white wool as used for knitting baby clothes. A ball of that cost about 50p and you could tie hundreds of BDs with one ball.

There were a few spin-offs, the Peppermint Doll being the most popular. That used Fluorescent green wool over the back of the fly.

The fly sank without trace during the 1980's.
Maybe Bob Church made it popular in the 70s for rainbows but the wasp and docken tying have been used in Scottish rivers and burns since the 50s anyway.

Al
 

kingf000

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,016
I was fishing a local river on Saturday (the trout season in that particular area doesn't finish until 15th Oct), using a nymph and small foam indicator. the indicator is bright green and made from a 9mm booby eye foam section folded in half. On one cast the indicator landed on the water and a very large trout came up to it and snaffled it - I even had pressure on the fish for around 5 seconds! So, a bright green lump of foam, with no hair/feather or any other dressing, and no hook, bought a large fish up in a deep pool. I have to admit i'm still shocked that this happened, but it certainly makes you wonder what the fish are seeing when our imitations land on the water and does that extra turn of hackle or extra fibbet of tail material really make a difference? My indicator is certainly inanimate, but one fish certainly wanted to have a meal of it. And, was I cheating? ;)
I've seen so many trout, both on rivers and lakes, take odd things off the top that, at lakes where a booby is not allowed, for a washing line rig or simply a string of buzzers, for the indicator I use a size 10 bright orange blob with a pink foam back. Very bouyant and highly visible. It is amazing how many trout I catch on it.
 

Paul_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
2,965
Location
South Yorkshire
Maybe Bob Church made it popular in the 70s for rainbows but the wasp and docken tying have been used in Scottish rivers and burns since the 50s anyway.

Al
As far as I know the original was made to imitate the rat tailed maggot, the larvae of the hover fly.

It also works when the trout are feeding on fry
 

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
8,477
Location
Wiltshire
As far as I know the original was made to imitate the rat tailed maggot, the larvae of the hover fly.

It also works when the trout are feeding on fry
Not on a size 8 longshank it wasn't. A hover fly to fit that would be the stuff of nightmares! I don't suppose the Scottish version was tied on a big hook either.
 

speytime

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2009
Messages
6,400
Location
West Lothian Scotland
Not on a size 8 longshank it wasn't. A hover fly to fit that would be the stuff of nightmares! I don't suppose the Scottish version was tied on a big hook either.
The docken grub was tied on a size 12 long shank the wasp grubs was tied on a standard shank size 12.

Al
 

trout_bum1

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
207
I haven’t read a single reply to your thread.
My apologies if someone has already given the same answer.

Some 25 or longer years ago, I/We used to fish a small lake in Oxford.
I’m not going to reveal the lakes name but we will just call the owner John.
The cost to fish this venue back then was £25 per person for 2 fish, thereafter catch and release.
The lake then was exclusive as the owner had stocked with rainbow trout many years before we were told of this secret lake. The small fish were around the 10lb mark. All fought like demons, and we, to start with had absolutely wonderful fishing.


Then the fishing started to get harder and harder, we commented on this to the owner who would go round the lake and stand shoulder to shoulder with the three of us in turn chatting and watching each like a hawk. As the fishing was nymph only with no fly over a size #10 allowed. The owner would net any fish you caught, congratulating you on a job well done whilst checking your fly in minute detail.

During the first dozen visits we never ever killed a single fish. The pleasure of catching these monsters was enough for each of us. However, the owner would put as much pressure on you while HE LANDED YOUR FISH, although he was never asked nor invited to do so. He would say, while netting your fish, how beautiful and fin perfect HIS fish were and it would be criminal to kill one.


We just could not understand why the fishing was drying up for us, as we are all good anglers.
Prior to fishing we had to phone John and let him know when we would be arriving so he could have a brew ready for us. Thanks John!

On one occasion we arrived over an hour earlier than we had told him to find him standing over the lake with a catapult feeding the trout with sinking pellets. We watched him through the conifers for some time. The words cheating **** and dirty ******* were mentioned several times. We slipped in slow like, to catch him feeding the fish, and to this dirty ***** credit he kept his composure. We never said a word other than “Where’s the brew, John!?”


We fished out that day with little action as the fish were hard on the bottom feeding on sinking, now sunk pellets, as they been during many fruitless previous trips.
When I got home I found some very thin foam taken from the top of the tomato boxes from down our local market and experimented with winding the correct amount of foam and hare’s ear so it would sink at the same rate as a sinking pellet.

I dressed over 50 of these flies and shared then out amongst the three of us, ready for our next trip to John’s lake now known as the c***’s lake.
Next trip, we phoned and told him we would arrive at 10am. We arrived at 8am and that happened to be before poor John’s the c***’s feeding time. To him, to start with, the fly just looked like a chunky hare’s ear nymph. First chuck “BANG!” John as usual netted the fish along with his usual well rehearsed well done Sir and it would be a shame to dispatch it...You get the drift.


He had a look at the fly which, after a battering, you could now see the foam underbody. When I took out my priest and knocked the trout on the head the realisation hit him. For the first time ever we all killed our first two fish thereafter catching at will: easiest day’s fishing we have ever had and one of my personal most memorable memories.
 

Paul_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
2,965
Location
South Yorkshire
Not on a size 8 longshank it wasn't. A hover fly to fit that would be the stuff of nightmares! I don't suppose the Scottish version was tied on a big hook either.
The original was in the region of a 10 or 12, I don't know about a 8 longshank except that they would be ok for sea fishing :)
 
Top