Leader catching on fly line

RM1234

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I have recently got into fly fishing and working on my casting, I am getting there with loading the rod and tight loops however I am having alot of issues with the back and forward casts tangling although rod is loaded. The line shoots forward but the leader just wraps around the fly line. Any suggestions?
 

GEK79

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I have recently got into fly fishing and working on my casting, I am getting there with loading the rod and tight loops however I am having alot of issues with the back and forward casts tangling although rod is loaded. The line shoots forward but the leader just wraps around the fly line. Any suggestions?
Now I'm no expert but how long is your leader. Have you a fly attached or just practicing.. Is it a taperedleader.. How is it connected to the fly line.. May seem like alot of questions but understanding your outfit and set up will help try to sort your issue.
Gary
 

RM1234

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Hi Gary thanks for the reply, I use 9ft tapered leader 9ft 5wt rod with a size 12 fly on the end. Hope this helps
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GEK79

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Hi Gary thanks for the reply, I use 9ft tapered leader 9ft 5wt rod with a size 12 fly on the end. Hope this helps
×
Now there could be many things at play.. Possible the hackle of fly causing spin which causes the line to tangle.. A size 12 fly is big enough perhaps your leader is too thin.. Do you know what diameter the leader is.. They are just a few ideas.. There's a chance I'm miles of but just a few ideas.. I think somewhere there is a rule of x for leaders and size flies to use but I'm not completely sure..
 

shpeil

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Could be a tailing loop. To simplify, the cause is too much power causing the rod to overload. This means the rod bends too much and the tip, instead of tracing a straight line front to back and back to front, instead dips below that line in the middle of the stroke. The line/leader follows the rod tip resulting in the fly line crossing itself. It's a very common casting problem.

Others will be more qualified than me to help but try widening the casting arc as you extend line in the air. Also try accelerating the rod through the whole casting stroke so the power is applied more gradually.
 

GEK79

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Could be a tailing loop. To simplify, the cause is too much power causing the rod to overload. This means the rod bends too much and the tip, instead of tracing a straight line front to back and back to front, instead dips below that line in the middle of the stroke. The line/leader follows the rod tip resulting in the fly line crossing itself. It's a very common casting problem.

Others will be more qualified than me to help but try widening the casting arc as you extend line in the air. Also try accelerating the rod through the whole casting stroke so the power is applied more gradually.
It could be one of many things.. As I said I'm not a magnificent ient caster myself.. Glad you dropped in.. 👍👍
 

RM1234

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Tailing loop does sound like it could be the issue. How do I adjust my cast action to reduce this?
T
×
 

2306chris

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Tailing loop does sound like it could be the issue. How do I adjust my cast action to reduce this?
T
×
Try not to put the power on too early in the casting stroke, once your back cast extends start your forward cast gently and accelerate to the stop. If you hit the forward cast quickly straight away it often causes a tailing loop.
 

tangled

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^^^ probably this - tailing loop, power in the wrong place.

Once you've learned not to waft the rod around in an arc, the next problem to take on is the definite stop on the backcast and then the steady increase in power in the forward cast. I think this last is the hardest.

It's difficult because you've actually not got much space to do it in so you tend to punch hard. If you watch an expert it's actually quite gentle but deliberate, all timing and the little flick of the wrist at the end completes it.

Excellent demonstration of curing it here:

 

PaulD

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Tailing loop does sound like it could be the issue. How do I adjust my cast action to reduce this?
T
×
The problem, as with many casting issues, is that there are a number of actions which can produce a Tailing Loop - these are 5 common ones;

1. Too narrow a casting arc for the bend in the rod.
2. 'Creep' - the involuntary 'anticipation of the forward cast that shortens the casting stroke.
3. Finishing a haul too soon.
4. Breaking the 180 degree rule - back cast high, forward cast high, creating a dip in the rod tip path.
5. Jerky or miss-timed application of power within the casting stroke.

Often, with inexperienced casters it's number 5, where there's an urge to give the final forward cast a 'bit more effort' - the 'sudden' increase in force creates a dip in the rod tip path and creates a 'transverse wave in the fly leg of the loop that runs along the fly leg under tension.'
 

BobP

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Tailing loops are a right b*gger and cause huge frustration which leads to more tailing loops which leads to more frustration which leads to.........

I have one rod with which I get the tailing loop problem. An 8' #4. A nice rod for a small river and as long as I am casting within its comfort zone, ie up to about 12 yards or so, everything is fine, but as soon as I try to push it a couple of yards further tailing loops become almost automatic. None of my other rods give me this issue.

It is almost certainly the application of extra power on the forward cast that causes the problem and is possibly exacerbated by my casting style which tends to be suited to fast-actioned rods. I can cast well with any rod given a few minutes to acclimatise to its action, but I definitely prefer those with fast responses which is almost certainly why I don't get on well with this little rod.

The thing was given to me as a leaving present on my retirement so I am loathe to sell it. I'll probably give it to my 9 year old grandson if he progresses with his interest in fishing.
 

RM1234

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Thank you for the helpful responses. I do think applying too much power could be the issue just need to try and get a feel for it. Main issue with slowing it down is the pick up and back cast
 

original cormorant

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To get a feel for it try practicing in a field or a park and watch you backcast and see what happens when you slow down, speed up, change your arc and make other changes.
 

Mrtrout

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Agree with TL, just watch your back cast, make a point of looking behind you to make sure you are not forward casting too early.
S.
 

BobP

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Thank you for the helpful responses. I do think applying too much power could be the issue just need to try and get a feel for it. Main issue with slowing it down is the pick up and back cast
Don't try to pick up more line than you can cope with. It's better to shorten up, lift off, do one false cast and deliver the fly. I see a lot of anglers trying to lift 15 yards of line off the water and get into one unholy mess as a result.
 

original cormorant

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. I see a lot of anglers trying to lift 15 yards of line off the water and get into one unholy mess as a result.
In what situations are they doing that and not fishing the cast out?

The only reason that I'm aware of is to cover a fish quickly. There's another current thread with a similar point.
 

silver creek

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I have recently got into fly fishing and working on my casting, I am getting there with loading the rod and tight loops however I am having alot of issues with the back and forward casts tangling although rod is loaded. The line shoots forward but the leader just wraps around the fly line. Any suggestions?
Thank you for the helpful responses. I do think applying too much power could be the issue just need to try and get a feel for it. Main issue with slowing it down is the pick up and back cast
More than you want to know about tailing loops:

First, let's define a few terms.

During a cast the fly line forms a loop that has two "legs" or sides to it. One side is connected to the rod tip and that is the "rod leg" and the other side is connected to the fly and that is the "fly leg" of the cast. The amount of separation of the two legs is the loop size. A tight loop is when the legs are close together and obviously, a tailing loop is when the the fly leg AND the rod leg cross AND the legs are in the SAME CASTING PLANE.



The rod tip MUST travel in a SLP (Straight Line Path) which ends in a HS (Hard Stop) with a wrist flick to move the rod tip out of the way of the following fly line. The amount of wrist flick determines the loop size as in the illustration below from Jason Borger's book on fly casting.



When we "load" the rod during a cast, the Effective Rod Length (the distance from the rod tip to the casting hand) SHORTENS. So as a rod bends, the rod gets shorter and this shortening brings the rod tip closer to our hand. The casting stoke MUST compensate for this shortening or a tailing loop will happen. Note that the longer the fly cast, the greater the rod shortening, the longer the rod stroke, and the greater the compensation must be to maintain an SLP of the rod tip.



NOTE: The two legs can cross and NOT be a tailing loop if the two casting planes are separated as in a Belgian cast where the backcast is performed sidearm and the forward cast is overhead. It is then obvious that one way to avoid tailing loops is to use a Belgian cast also called an oval constant tension cast.

Now that we have defined the terms used to describe a fly cast, we can describe how to diagnose WHEN in the casting stroke you applied too much power.

First look at this stop motion of Jason Borger casting a tailing loop.



Look at the bend in Jason's rod in the stop motion and note that the location of the rod tip in the first two rod positions. The rod tips are at about the same height and then as the casting stroke progresses, the rod tip progressively "dips" BELOW what should be the SLP.

The DIP in the rod tip is CAUSED by a rod stroke that HAS NOT COMPENSATED for the SHORTENING OF THE ROD during the fly cast!

This dip can have two causes.

The first is a sudden dip for which no rod stroke can compensate. That is the what we are addressing here. A sudden acceleration = too much power during the cast. This can occur at any time during the cast and we will discuss early, mid, and late sudden accelerations.

The second cause is the normal shortening of the rod tip during a cast with an abnormal stoke path that will always cause a tailing loop because the rod stroke itself is abnormal.
Think of it this way. If the rod shortens and creates a concave rod tip path that causes a tailing loop, then a convex rod stroke can compensate for the for the rod shortening. If you look at second and third illustrations of the rod stroke above, you should notice the CONVEX path of the casting hand. There are exceptions to this when very long casts are being made and the rod is laid back so the subsequent rod stroke is straight; but for most casts, the rod stroke will have some convexity.

Now that you know that the tangling of the fly line and leader is a tailing loop and that is due to applying too much power, the question is when during your casting stroke are you applying too much power?

The timing of a tailing loop after loop formation is related to WHEN the tip dips down during the casting stroke.

an early dip causes a late tailing loop. A dip in the middle of the stroke causes a tailing loop in the middle of the forward cast. A late dip just before the stop causes and early tailing loops shortly after loop formation.

Aitor Coteron has done extensive video studies of tailing loops. He has a series of videos on Vimeo that demonstrate the timing of the rod tip dip during the casting stroke and the resultant timing of the tailing loops during the forward cast. A hard and long haul is performed during 3 forward casting strokes.

The timing of the haul is early, mid and late. The haul causes the rod tip to dip down as the fly line suddenly accelerated by the haul. This increases the energy in the cast and the rod must bend to absorb some of this energy as potential energy.

This haul simulates the timing of a sudden acceleration during the casting stroke which would cause the same rod tip dip.

Late Tail = Early Haul




Middle Tail = Middle Haul




Early Tail = Late Haul



Finally, if a beginner mistimes the forward casting stoke and begins TOO EARLY, the backcast will not have extended. This means that there is too little fly line mass lined up behind the caster to load the rod for the forward cast. So the caster has to speed up the acceleration to get the forward cast to extend and this sudden acceleration causes a tailing loop.

 

BobP

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In what situations are they doing that and not fishing the cast out?

The only reason that I'm aware of is to cover a fish quickly. There's another current thread with a similar point.
Putting the fly down in the "wrong" place is a hot favourite. Instead of fishing the cast out which takes a few seconds and then re-casting properly and under control, it's a case of heave it off the water and try again. If luck is with them the fly will usually land nowhere near the intended spot. If not there is an almighty tangle and if a tailing loop results it's the least bad result.

This sort of malarkey seems to happen most often on biggish rivers. If there was a fish rising where they were trying to reach it will have long since b*ggered off.
 
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