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Cap'n Fishy

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I don’t need a book to tell me that Sea Trout and Brown Trout are the same fish.
For me, it seems like common sense, and the argument is extremely boring.
What isn’t boring though, is the question of “Slob” trout, what they do, and why they do it.
Well, interesting to me anyway!.

Well, it's one contiguous species that can be found anywhere in a river, lake, estuarine and marine system. So, 'slob' trout would probably come under 'semi-anadromous' in that diagram in post # 103.

Col
 

easker1

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well there you go, I bet you have all read Falkus's book on seatrout, but not Charles Maclarens book on seatrout? but there you go , easker1
 

Scotty Mitchell

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Well, it's one contiguous species that can be found anywhere in a river, lake, estuarine and marine system. So, 'slob' trout would probably come under 'semi-anadromous' in that diagram in post # 103.

Col
I find them and their lifestyle a lot more interesting than the old debate of Sea Vs Brown.
Does anyone else consider that there are Trout who choose to remain in estuaries rather than migrate? Other than to breed obviously....maybe because of the reasons they migrated downstream in the first place?
Genuine wonderment here by the way, not intended to argue any particular point.
 

Scotty Mitchell

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well there you go, I bet you have all read Falkus's book on seatrout, but not Charles Maclarens book on seatrout? but there you go , easker1
I’ve read neither Derek, but I base my belief on what I have been told for years by those I know, who know a lot more than me, based on their experiences and studies.
I have found a copy of McLarens book on Amazon, only £15, I’ll get it and have a read.
I have to say though, that them being the same species makes absolute sense to me and I’ll take some convincing to believe otherwise.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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well there you go, I bet you have all read Falkus's book on seatrout, but not Charles Maclarens book on seatrout? but there you go , easker1

You are talking in riddles now, Derek. Are we judging each other by what books we have read??? :unsure: I have read 'The Very Hungry Caterpillar'. Beat that!

Just because someone can write, doesn't make them right. Dan Brown's 'The Da Vinci Code'. Do you believe all that stuff? And just because someone is a good angler, doesn't make what they write when they dip their toes into zoology correct. They might be correct, but they might not be.

Facts are facts only until someone comes along at a later date and proves they are incorrect. Given the choice between believing the latest published peer-reviewed papers written by qualified zoologists and believing what any Tom, Dick or Harry wrote nearly 100 years ago, I will go with the latest thinking... until that is shown to be wrong and is superseded by a better picture.

Just sayin'...
 

bobmiddlepoint

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MacLaren’s book is very much about fishing and not biology but it is a worthwhile read if only to give some idea of what has been lost from the west coast.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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I find them and their lifestyle a lot more interesting than the old debate of Sea Vs Brown.
Does anyone else consider that there are Trout who choose to remain in estuaries rather than migrate? Other than to breed obviously....maybe because of the reasons they migrated downstream in the first place?
Genuine wonderment here by the way, not intended to argue any particular point.

Well, they fit into the middle of the Sea vs Brown thing. If you consider it to be a 'greyscale', rather than a 'black and white' thing...

If it was black and white, every fish would be either a sea trout or a brown trout. But if it is a greyscale, then at one end you have brown trout and at the other end you have sea trout, and in the middle you have all sorts of other lifestyles, including fish that migrate up and down river regularly, fish such as those on Orkney that slip out of lochs into the sea, and back into the loch regularly, and slob trout that spend a lot of time in the estuarine environment. A PhD student did his thesis on the trout of the Loch Lomond system and found that is exactly what they are - a complete greyscale of everything running between full-on 100% freshwater trout and typical fully anadromous sea trout (which we should really call sea-run browns).

With regard to slob trout, that diagram in post #103 makes perfect sense. You have a fish that can live in both fresh and salt water, so to take maximum advantage of the niches available to it, it should post some of its population to the estuarine environs.

Col
 

Scotty Mitchell

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Well, they fit into the middle of the Sea vs Brown thing. If you consider it to be a 'greyscale', rather than a 'black and white' thing...

If it was black and white, every fish would be either a sea trout or a brown trout. But if it is a greyscale, then at one end you have brown trout and at the other end you have sea trout, and in the middle you have all sorts of other lifestyles, including fish that migrate up and down river regularly, fish such as those on Orkney that slip out of lochs into the sea, and back into the loch regularly, and slob trout that spend a lot of time in the estuarine environment. A PhD student did his thesis on the trout of the Loch Lomond system and found that is exactly what they are - a complete greyscale of everything running between full-on 100% freshwater trout and typical fully anadromous sea trout (which we should really call sea-run browns).

With regard to slob trout, that diagram in post #103 makes perfect sense. You have a fish that can live in both fresh and salt water, so to take maximum advantage of the niches available to it, it should post some of its population to the estuarine environs.

Col
Makes perfect sense.
Very well explained Col cheers.
It’s information like this I have listened to over the years, and it leaves me confused as to why some believe there are separate species of Brown Trout.
I’m now keen to find out why!
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Makes perfect sense.
Very well explained Col cheers.
It’s information like this I have listened to over the years, and it leaves me confused as to why some believe there are separate species of Brown Trout.
I’m now keen to find out why!

Ah well, that is a whole other can o' wurrims! 😜

You have the thing with slob trout occupying the resources of the estuarine environment. It's not so much the realm of a specialist, but just the generalist being able to occupy the tricky existence of a partly saline world. And the population with all its different degrees of anadromy all meet up on the spawning redds to share their genes, and so remain a homogeneous mix. No divergence is happening. But go to the lake environment. In a lake you have lots of different types of niches that would suit specialists. You've got the world of the pelagic roamer, feeding on plankton out over deep water. You've got the world of the bottom grubber, truffling out insects from among marginal stones. And you've got the role of a top predator who eats both the former types... to name but three!

In our lochs and loughs, all the niches became available after the last ice-age retreated. They were open to colonisation, and only a few species managed to find their way in, including our pal, Salmo trutta. Salmo trutta would absolutely love to diverge into myriad different species (it's what Darwinian selection pressure does), so it could specialise in all the niches that have been created in our post-glacial waters. To get an idea of what might happen millions of years down the road (in the absence of further ice ages), have a look at what happened to Lake Malawi after it formed by continental drift, and was initially colonised by only about 2 species of cichlid...

Malawi cichlids

OK, that is an extreme case, but it shows what can happen in the world of adaptive radiation, given a blank canvas. The key to adaptive radiation is being able to keep your specialists away from one another at breeding time. The pelagic roamers must only breed with other pelagic roamers, while bottom grubbers must breed only with other bottom grubbers. (This is called sympatric speciation.) If you can crack sympatric speciation (much trickier than simple geographic isolation), then you have the beginnings of divergence into new species. This is what seems to be happening with the trout we have identified as sonaghan, gillaroo and ferox... oh, and this deep water Loch Laidon fish being the latest addition...

Col
 

Scotty Mitchell

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Ah well, that is a whole other can o' wurrims! 😜

You have the thing with slob trout occupying the resources of the estuarine environment. It's not so much the realm of a specialist, but just the generalist being able to occupy the tricky existence of a partly saline world. And the population with all its different degrees of anadromy all meet up on the spawning redds to share their genes, and so remain a homogeneous mix. No divergence is happening. But go to the lake environment. In a lake you have lots of different types of niches that would suit specialists. You've got the world of the pelagic roamer, feeding on plankton out over deep water. You've got the world of the bottom grubber, truffling out insects from among marginal stones. And you've got the role of a top predator who eats both the former types... to name but three!

In our lochs and loughs, all the niches became available after the last ice-age retreated. They were open to colonisation, and only a few species managed to find their way in, including our pal, Salmo trutta. Salmo trutta would absolutely love to diverge into myriad different species (it's what Darwinian selection pressure does), so it could specialise in all the niches that have been created in our post-glacial waters. To get an idea of what might happen millions of years down the road (in the absence of further ice ages), have a look at what happened to Lake Malawi after it formed by continental drift, and was initially colonised by only about 2 species of cichlid...

Malawi cichlids

OK, that is an extreme case, but it shows what can happen in the world of adaptive radiation, given a blank canvas. The key to adaptive radiation is being able to keep your specialists away from one another at breeding time. The pelagic roamers must only breed with other pelagic roamers, while bottom grubbers must breed only with other bottom grubbers. (This is called sympatric speciation.) If you can crack sympatric speciation (much trickier than simple geographic isolation), then you have the beginnings of divergence into new species. This is what seems to be happening with the trout we have identified as sonaghan, gillaroo and ferox... oh, and this deep water Loch Laidon fish being the latest addition...

Col
Very interesting Col.
I appreciate the time and effort to explain, in a way I can understand.
I experience the Pelagic roamers and bottom grubbers you have wrote about on many occasions, on a lot of the waters I fish. The pelagists (😃) are usually lighter in colouration in comparison to their bottom grubbing relations, you have offered reasons as to why before, and I’ve agreed due to my own experiences.
Again what you write totally rings true.
I really enjoyed the Malawi article and I intend to follow this up with some more reading following the links.
 

easker1

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do Browns a seatrout interbreed?By the way those who Ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes( Georges Santyanna)my interest in reading the books I have is because I an interested in the History of Angling, just saying easker1
 

Cap'n Fishy

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do Browns a seatrout interbreed?

Jeezo! :oops: Browns are sea trout. Sea trout are brown trout. They are the same fish. Of course they interbreed.

Put sea trout into a river system that previously was devoid of trout, and in a few years, you will have both brown trout and sea trout.

Put brown trout into a river system that previously was devoid of trout, and in a few years, you will have both brown trout and sea trout.

They are one and the same species, Salmo trutta. Refer to the diagram in post # 103 for how they distribute themselves.

Salmon and trout interbreed - far more often than most of us appreciate. Why on earth would brown trout and sea trout not interbreed??? :unsure:
 

Cap'n Fishy

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By the way those who Ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes( Georges Santyanna)my interest in reading the books I have is because I an interested in the History of Angling, just saying easker1

I think you confuse history - what actually happened - with folk who just write about stuff that is outside their area of expertise.
 

Scotty Mitchell

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do Browns a seatrout interbreed?By the way those who Ignore history are doomed to repeat its mistakes( Georges Santyanna)my interest in reading the books I have is because I an interested in the History of Angling, just saying easker1
But History is just that Derek.
Of course we need to understand it to get the bigger picture, but surely we must also heed the developments that come about and are scientifically proven, then explained?
 

LukeNZ

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I was waiting for your comment Col, you said the same last time I posted them, it's what ever floats your boat,we cant all be perfect, I always straighten the cast with a bit of inner tube before use I have done this for many years now with no problems, easker1

....you take a bicycle wheel when you go fishing! 😱

I am a big fan of the manufacturers storage idea and just put one of these in my pocket; it covers absolutely every trout fishing situation I encounter..

5246C6FF-09A4-4D66-A1DC-6A66BAE17BB6.jpeg


🙃
 
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easker1

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....you take a bicycle wheel when you go fishing! 😱
Not exactly what I said is it? a small square of flat rubber Inner tube is the handiest thing for straightening a leader, so you haven't heard of that in NZ? something new for you then, easker1
 

easker1

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I won't go into what Nall &Menzies said, I leave that up to you , but isn't or wasn't the Seatrout called Fario, ? easker1
 

Cap'n Fishy

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I won't go into what Nall &Menzies said...

Why won't you? It's what I've been asking you to do, again and again and again, the entire time. We don't know, because we don't have the book. So, if you won't tell us, then we have no idea what you are on about! :unsure:

Is it some kind of secret or something, that you won't go into it? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

To be honest, if you refuse to go into it, then I suggest you just shut up about it.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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... or wasn't the Seatrout called Fario, ? easker1

Erm, no, I think the brown trout was called Salmo trutta fario for a while, before being reclassified. They are all Salmo trutta these days... until we choose to split-off ferox and sonaghan and gillaroo, of course...
 

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