Old Picric a.k.a WOIGO

Wee Jimmy

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A lot of folk on here ask about the shade west of Ireland golden-olive. Above is a photo illustrating what I believe may be the answer to its origins. Hopefully the Irish lads on here could shed some light on it....;-)
The seal fur shown was natural dyed in real picric acid which initially gives us the colour on the left.The stuff on the right is what happens to it after a month or so sitting on a sunny window sill. The picric reacts with sunlight or UV and changes it from yellow into what to my mind looks remarkably close to west of Ireland golden olive. In short, woigo and Old Picric as it is known as ,is one and the same.​
 

Gerryb

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Do they have enough sun to do that on the west of Ireland ?
All joking aside , the West of Ireland is now regarded as a dangerous place for skin cancers on the face and ears due to the Evening Sun here , and people are now using sun protection even on overcast days when boat fishing.
 

GEK79

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All joking aside , the West of Ireland is now regarded as a dangerous place for skin cancers on the face and ears due to the Evening Sun here , and people are now using sun protection even on overcast days when boat fishing.
Here in Donegal the sun is shining more and burning more.. Wasn't the picric colour created using urine of some sort.. Possibly a ram or goat.. I may be miles away with that..
Gary
 

Wee Jimmy

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Here in Donegal the sun is shining more and burning more.. Wasn't the picric colour created using urine of some sort.. Possibly a ram or goat.. I may be miles away with that..
Gary
I believe it was fiery brown which had donkey urine involved somewhere in the process...🥴😃
 

shuck raider

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Here in Donegal the sun is shining more and burning more.. Wasn't the picric colour created using urine of some sort.. Possibly a ram or goat.. I may be miles away with that..
Gary
It was Michael Rogan of Ballyshannon who used jackass urine as a mordant for his Fiery Brown seal's fur. He kept it in a bucket in the yard at the back of the shop and locals complained about the stench in warm weather. The local Garda sergeant was sent to sort it out but as he was one of Michael's best customers, somehow the matter was never resolved :)
 

doobrysnatcher

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It was Michael Rogan of Ballyshannon who used jackass urine as a mordant for his Fiery Brown seal's fur. He kept it in a bucket in the yard at the back of the shop and locals complained about the stench in warm weather. The local Garda sergeant was sent to sort it out but as he was one of Michael's best customers, somehow the matter was never resolved :)
he must of made a fair earning selling flies as most didnt have a bucket to piss in ,
 

Wee Jimmy

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It was Michael Rogan of Ballyshannon who used jackass urine as a mordant for his Fiery Brown seal's fur. He kept it in a bucket in the yard at the back of the shop and locals complained about the stench in warm weather. The local Garda sergeant was sent to sort it out but as he was one of Michael's best customers, somehow the matter was never resolved :)
Has there always been a distinction between what is commonly known as golden olive and the so called west of Ireland golden olive..? It seems to be a fairly recent term,I haven’t seen any references to it beyond the last 10-12 years or so..? I wonder if it’s Rogans Golden Olive under a different name.
 

Gerryb

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"he must of made a fair earning selling flies as most didnt have a bucket to piss in "

And if they did , it wouldn't be left outside either . "Jackass" is Irish Vernacular for someone acting foolishly , as in "Amn't I the right Jackass to be tying flies to try and make a few bob" . Any one ever try and catch an Ass to do a bit of work , never mind get him to piss in a bucket 😂😂 .
 
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Gerryb

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Has there always been a distinction between what is commonly known as golden olive and the so called west of Ireland golden olive..? It seems to be a fairly recent term,I haven’t seen any references to it beyond the last 10-12 years or so..? I wonder if it’s Rogans Golden Olive under a different name.
Here's what David Rice had to say on the subject,
"Golden Olive - beauty is in the eye of the beholder on this one. There are two different colours, both described as golden olive. The first has a predominantly yellow base, with a dash of olive added i.e. it is a yellow olive, this is what you will see all over England sold as golden olive. The same colour also appears in Ireland from dealers importing from English wholesalers. The second version is variously described as "golden olive", "western golden olive" or sometimes "Rogan's golden olive" (after Michael Rogan of Ballyshannon) and is much the preferred colour in Ireland. The big secret is there is absolutely no olive in it whatsoever. It is in fact gold or burnt gold. I recall having a conversation with Tom Schmuecker (head man at Wapsi). I had sent various sample capes to him and asked him to copy the colours. I had written the usual stuff of "well, hold it up to the light and you can see a faint olive hue at the edge of the hackle". This you can certainly convince yourself exists. Tom however, despite his years obviously has better eyes than mine. "I've read your letter ten times" he says "looked at the hackles as many times and I still can't see the olive - it's gold". He then when on to accuse me of seeing the fairies and drinking too much of the rocket fuel available as bottles of "holy water" over here."

The Golden Olives that I had passed down to me were definitely of the second variety mentioned above , and were big flies to boot .
 
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splinters

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Has there always been a distinction between what is commonly known as golden olive and the so called west of Ireland golden olive..? It seems to be a fairly recent term,I haven’t seen any references to it beyond the last 10-12 years or so..? I wonder if it’s Rogans Golden Olive under a different name.
I had never heard the term woigo until I joined this forum. I bought my first golden olive cape in the eighties. My mentor told me to get proper golden olive and "Not that english stuff." (Veniards). He told me a golden olive cape should be soft orange in reflected light and just a hint of olive around the edges in transmitted light. I'm not sure if I've just talked myself into it but I can see that hint in your photo. I suppose it doesn't really matter, the fish like it anyway. Please be careful with picric, we've lost too many tyers to it already.
S.
 

LukeNZ

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All joking aside , the West of Ireland is now regarded as a dangerous place for skin cancers on the face and ears due to the Evening Sun here , and people are now using sun protection even on overcast days when boat fishing.
And, they have also taken to diluting the water, to help alleviate the drought..
...according to me good mate Toby Shaw 🙄
 

Cap'n Fishy

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. The big secret is there is absolutely no olive in it whatsoever. It is in fact gold or burnt gold.
I'm no expert on it, but I have packets of Rogan's golden olive and another Irish one and they don't look like they have any olive in them. When I have been experimenting, trying to get WOIGO deer hair to a colour I want, I have not used any olive. Yellows, Jacquard 'Aztec Gold', oranges, peach, even a touch of magenta. One thing to take on board is that in the CMYK system, olive is a mix of grey and yellow... and, not surprisingly, if you dye grey deer hair yellow, you get olive.

Col

PS: I realised I had taken a photo of the 2 packets I have...



On the right is a swatch of trilobal nylon dyed in Jacquard 'Aztec Gold'.
 
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Cap'n Fishy

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All joking aside , the West of Ireland is now regarded as a dangerous place for skin cancers on the face and ears due to the Evening Sun here , and people are now using sun protection even on overcast days when boat fishing.
Just an aside - I've been seeing various dermatologists over the past 6 years to have bits of sun damage to my skin treated - biopsies, excissions of BCCs, bits burnt-off with liquid nitrogen, and other bits smeared with 'Solaraze'...

And every dermatologist I have seen says the same thing: "If you are spending the day outside in the British isles between April and September, wear sunscreen, regardless of what the weather is."

As you say - boat fishing just makes that even more of a requirement!

Col
 

Gerryb

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Just an aside - I've been seeing various dermatologists over the past 6 years to have bits of sun damage to my skin treated - biopsies, excissions of BCCs, bits burnt-off with liquid nitrogen, and other bits smeared with 'Solaraze'...

And every dermatologist I have seen says the same thing: "If you are spending the day outside in the British isles between April and September, wear sunscreen, regardless of what the weather is."

As you say - boat fishing just makes that even more of a requirement!

Col
Not forgetting the eyes either , some Evenings here , you'd want welding goggles never mind sunglasses.
 

Wee Jimmy

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Here's what David Rice had to say on the subject,
"Golden Olive - beauty is in the eye of the beholder on this one. There are two different colours, both described as golden olive. The first has a predominantly yellow base, with a dash of olive added i.e. it is a yellow olive, this is what you will see all over England sold as golden olive. The same colour also appears in Ireland from dealers importing from English wholesalers. The second version is variously described as "golden olive", "western golden olive" or sometimes "Rogan's golden olive" (after Michael Rogan of Ballyshannon) and is much the preferred colour in Ireland. The big secret is there is absolutely no olive in it whatsoever. It is in fact gold or burnt gold. I recall having a conversation with Tom Schmuecker (head man at Wapsi). I had sent various sample capes to him and asked him to copy the colours. I had written the usual stuff of "well, hold it up to the light and you can see a faint olive hue at the edge of the hackle". This you can certainly convince yourself exists. Tom however, despite his years obviously has better eyes than mine. "I've read your letter ten times" he says "looked at the hackles as many times and I still can't see the olive - it's gold". He then when on to accuse me of seeing the fairies and drinking too much of the rocket fuel available as bottles of "holy water" over here."

The Golden Olives that I had passed down to me were definitely of the second variety mentioned above , and were big flies to boot .
I had never heard the term woigo until I joined this forum. I bought my first golden olive cape in the eighties. My mentor told me to get proper golden olive and "Not that english stuff." (Veniards). He told me a golden olive cape should be soft orange in reflected light and just a hint of olive around the edges in transmitted light. I'm not sure if I've just talked myself into it but I can see that hint in your photo. I suppose it doesn't really matter, the fish like it anyway. Please be careful with picric, we've lost too many tyers to it already.
S.
Thanks Gerry and Splinters, Do you think there might be some truth behind the idea of a link between aged Picric and western golden olive...? I realise folk will have their favourite shades and there will be as many opinions on what the colour should be.
 

Gerryb

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Thanks Gerry and Splinters, Do you think there might be some truth behind the idea of a link between aged Picric and western golden olive...? I realise folk will have their favourite shades and there will be as many opinions on what the colour should be.
I honestly don't know is the straight answer, but people back in the day couldn't afford to discard stuff like we do now , so it's perfectly logical to think that maybe flies being kept for as long as possible would acquire a certain "patina" over time.
On the subject of Picric , I fish with a senior angler who uses the finest grey partridge feathers treated with it on a lot of his flies. He shortlines from a drifting boat and it works bigtime.
 
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