Pet flea treatments poisoning rivers across England, scientists find

matt808

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Aye, fine. Do you not get the bit where it is not a competition to decide who is the biggest culprit? It is a case of identifying all the sources and trying to stop all of them.
Anything that finds it's way in to a river that shouldnt be there is going to be harmful.
Flea treatment is only a very small contributor, especially if Frontline and bravecto, properly used and controlled, are not a major issue?
Still would like to know the percentage of dog owners who use either Frontline or bravecto, I bet it's at least 50 %, if not a lot more.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Anything that finds it's way in to a river that shouldnt be there is going to be harmful.

Well, that is not necessarily true. As already mentioned, providing you control phosphate levels, then increased levels of nitrates do not make a lot of difference. They are not toxic to life-forms. Adding foreign limestone to acidic rivers to raise pH levels is done to improve invertebrate numbers. The competitors in a plastic duck race shouldn't be there, but they are not harmful to life-forms. 🤪 On the other hand, insecticides have only one purpose - to kill insects.

Flea treatment is only a very small contributor, especially if Frontline and bravecto, properly used and controlled, are not a major issue?

Flea treatment is 'only a very small contributor' to what? Killing aquatic insects? What are all the other more significant contributors to killing aquatic insects, aside from plant sprays and seed dressings? How do you know what proportions of the total load each of these 3 account for?

But anyhoo, that is not the point. It's a question of asking everyone who uses insecticides to have a look at what they are doing and to ensure there is no possibility of any insecticides ending up in watercourses in an active form as a result of us using them, whether it is as flea treatments or plant sprays or midge repellents, or anything else, surely?
 

kingf000

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Well, that is not necessarily true. As already mentioned, providing you control phosphate levels, then increased levels of nitrates do not make a lot of difference. They are not toxic to life-forms. Adding foreign limestone to acidic rivers to raise pH levels is done to improve invertebrate numbers. The competitors in a plastic duck race shouldn't be there, but they are not harmful to life-forms. 🤪 On the other hand, insecticides have only one purpose - to kill insects.



Flea treatment is 'only a very small contributor' to what? Killing aquatic insects? What are all the other more significant contributors to killing aquatic insects, aside from plant sprays and seed dressings? How do you know what proportions of the total load each of these 3 account for?

But anyhoo, that is not the point. It's a question of asking everyone who uses insecticides to have a look at what they are doing and to ensure there is no possibility of any insecticides ending up in watercourses in an active form as a result of us using them, whether it is as flea treatments or plant sprays or midge repellents, or anything else, surely?
I must say I find it disturbing that people are spraying their waders with insecticides before getting into rivers. I didn't know that and it is bonkers!
 

BobP

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Anyone got any idea how many miles of designated main river there are in England? Look it up on the EA website and then wonder how come there is any space for humans. Then factor in how many miles of ordinary water course there is. For those who don't know the difference, main river is that length of river for which the EA has a maintenance obligation. Ordinary watercourses are everything else where landowners are responsible.

When you've done that and added up how many tens of thousands of miles there are think about the allegation that dogs are responsible for poisoning it all.

For those of you who obviously dislike dogs you'll be delighted to hear that there is one less to poison a river because I had to have my 9 year old English Springer Spaniel put to sleep yesterday evening as he had a tumour in his bladder.
 

kingf000

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Anyone got any idea how many miles of designated main river there are in England? Look it up on the EA website and then wonder how come there is any space for humans. Then factor in how many miles of ordinary water course there is. For those who don't know the difference, main river is that length of river for which the EA has a maintenance obligation. Ordinary watercourses are everything else where landowners are responsible.

When you've done that and added up how many tens of thousands of miles there are think about the allegation that dogs are responsible for poisoning it all.

For those of you who obviously dislike dogs you'll be delighted to hear that there is one less to poison a river because I had to have my 9 year old English Springer Spaniel put to sleep yesterday evening as he had a tumour in his bladder.
I'm sorry to hear about your dog, quite young. However, and this is not anti dog, but worth thinking about: in 2019 there were 21M cats and dogs in the UK. If they were all treated every month with 25mg of insecticide (an underestimate? recommended dose of frontline spot on: 6.7mg/kg fiprinol, 6mg/kg, methoprene, so 134mg of fiprinol for a 20kg dog) that is 0.3g per year per animal, or 6 million grams of insecticide, or 6 tons!
 

BobP

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Lot of assumptions in there. That assumes that every dog and cat will be treated every month which is very far from the case. I had 3 dogs only one of which had a tick treatment this year in the form of a palatable tablet that lasts 3 months not 1 month as you assume. Most treatments these days last 3 months so you have divide that 6 tons by 4 for a start. Last year I had 4 dogs and none of them needed flea or tick treatment at all.

I was chatting to three other chaps yesterday with 9 dogs between them. None of them used flea or tick treatments preferring to use a removal tool for ticks. One used lemon juice sprayed on his dogs if they got ticks. Very effective apparently

I have yet to see a cat swimming anywhere. Cats hate water and will avoid it like the plague. You are also assuming that everyone of those 21 million cats & dogs have frequent access to rivers which is stretching things more than somewhat. Most live in the urban environment - towns - so access to rivers is limited to say the least. Most ticks originate from deer or sheep. Urban cats & dogs will have very limited access to the former unless you are stating that there are herds of deer parading through every town in the country and any dog running around near sheep is likely to meet a sticky end. Regarding sheep, we know that they need treatment to get ticks off them. so perhaps you'd like to find out just how many woolly jumpers we have running around the countryside these days and what treatment is used for them.
 

kingf000

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Lot of assumptions in there. That assumes that every dog and cat will be treated every month which is very far from the case. I had 3 dogs only one of which had a tick treatment this year in the form of a palatable tablet that lasts 3 months not 1 month as you assume. Most treatments these days last 3 months so you have divide that 6 tons by 4 for a start. Last year I had 4 dogs and none of them needed flea or tick treatment at all.

I was chatting to three other chaps yesterday with 9 dogs between them. None of them used flea or tick treatments preferring to use a removal tool for ticks. One used lemon juice sprayed on his dogs if they got ticks. Very effective apparently

I have yet to see a cat swimming anywhere. Cats hate water and will avoid it like the plague. You are also assuming that everyone of those 21 million cats & dogs have frequent access to rivers which is stretching things more than somewhat. Most live in the urban environment - towns - so access to rivers is limited to say the least. Most ticks originate from deer or sheep. Urban cats & dogs will have very limited access to the former unless you are stating that there are herds of deer parading through every town in the country and any dog running around near sheep is likely to meet a sticky end. Regarding sheep, we know that they need treatment to get ticks off them. so perhaps you'd like to find out just how many woolly jumpers we have running around the countryside these days and what treatment is used for them.
Please do not take what I wrote literally. I was just demonstrating that what one individual may think is a very small effect, when multiplied by the numbers of other people doing the same thing - it can become mind blowing. We had a holiday on the north French coast and were told off for taking a nice looking round stone to take home. One stone removed doesn't seem a big deal, but they found out that when nearly everyone was doing it, the stones were disappearing at an alarming rate!
 

BobP

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Please do not take what I wrote literally. I was just demonstrating that what one individual may think is a very small effect, when multiplied by the numbers of other people doing the same thing - it can become mind blowing. We had a holiday on the north French coast and were told off for taking a nice looking round stone to take home. One stone removed doesn't seem a big deal, but they found out that when nearly everyone was doing it, the stones were disappearing at an alarming rate!

If you don't want it taken literally perhaps you shouldn't write it. I await your findings after you have counted all the sheep. Should be interesting.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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If you don't want it taken literally perhaps you shouldn't write it...

Ha-ha - that is priceless, coming from the undisputed king of hyperbole and gross exaggeration! :ROFLMAO:

"Drennan Double Strength breaks when you sneeze on it..."

... what are we told?

"You mustn't use that because it sinks and will drag the flies down." Probably soon to be followed by angler, boat and all if you leave it long enough.

You made all of that up. All of it! And you trot it out time and time again in various guises, along with all your other favourite fabricated rhetoric..

🤪
 
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Cap'n Fishy

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Lot of assumptions in there. That assumes that every dog and cat will be treated every month which is very far from the case. I had 3 dogs only one of which had a tick treatment this year in the form of a palatable tablet that lasts 3 months not 1 month as you assume. Most treatments these days last 3 months so you have divide that 6 tons by 4 for a start. Last year I had 4 dogs and none of them needed flea or tick treatment at all.

I was chatting to three other chaps yesterday with 9 dogs between them. None of them used flea or tick treatments preferring to use a removal tool for ticks. One used lemon juice sprayed on his dogs if they got ticks. Very effective apparently

I have yet to see a cat swimming anywhere. Cats hate water and will avoid it like the plague. You are also assuming that everyone of those 21 million cats & dogs have frequent access to rivers which is stretching things more than somewhat. Most live in the urban environment - towns - so access to rivers is limited to say the least. Most ticks originate from deer or sheep. Urban cats & dogs will have very limited access to the former unless you are stating that there are herds of deer parading through every town in the country and any dog running around near sheep is likely to meet a sticky end. Regarding sheep, we know that they need treatment to get ticks off them. so perhaps you'd like to find out just how many woolly jumpers we have running around the countryside these days and what treatment is used for them.

Totally beside the point. The point is that insecticides kill insects and they are very good at it, some of them in ridiculously small concentrations. If we want insects, we need to be careful with our use of insecticides. Know exactly what you are using, how much of it you ae using, what you are using it on and what happens to it after you have used it.

Is all...
 

kingf000

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Totally beside the point. The point is that insecticides kill insects and they are very good at it, some of them in ridiculously small concentrations. If we want insects, we need to be careful with our use of insecticides. Know exactly what you are using, how much of it you ae using, what you are using it on and what happens to it after you have used it.

Is all...
Unfortunately, in practice, some people aren't careful. Time for a spring clean, lets get rid of all those half full bottles that we've lost the labels for. Pour the contents down the sink or toilet straight into the sewer, put them in the bin where they go to landfill, leak out and pollute the water. One of our local landfill sites is at the top of a hill, an old gravel pit, with a river 300 yards away downhill. If, as you see whenever you go for a walk, people are so stupid and thoughtless as to throw used face masks anywhere - one appeared in my front garden the other day - expect anything!

As I said earlier, none of this the pets fault - but the stupid and careless humans.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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As I said earlier, none of this the pets fault.

I've tried to say the same thing several times over the course of the 2 threads. I've also tried to say that we are all responsible for trying to do what we can to prevent any insecticides entering the environment in ways that cause harm to 'friendly fauna', regardless of their provenance. Not just dog owners and Dog People.

I reckon Dog People just see dogs, so as soon as anyone mentions dogs, in a thread such as this, they see it as an attack on their idols, not on them. :unsure:
 
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Cap'n Fishy

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Notice how no one has posted on either of the 2 threads to talk about how their cats are special, and if they need treated with such and such, nothing else matters? And I reckon ‘Cat People’ are just as mad as Dog People. It simply appears that there are no Cat People on the forum to give us the same strawman argument. Maybe just that fly fishing and dogs are much more a natural partnership than fly fishing and cats. Cat People… bit more, well, colourful. 😜

I have not one photo of a cat being taken fly fishing...

Langabhat_Jun14_6924.jpg


Lomond02sep2017_9450.jpg



2035.jpg


Not that any of them were in swimming with flea powder on them, of course! 😗
 

Cap'n Fishy

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And not that any of the owners were covered in midge repellant either,
of course.

Bert

Jeezo... how many more times???

It's a question of asking everyone who uses insecticides to have a look at what they are doing and to ensure there is no possibility of any insecticides ending up in watercourses in an active form as a result of us using them, whether it is as flea treatments or plant sprays or midge repellents, or anything else, surely?
 

aenoon

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Blame who?
You blame dogs and their owners.
Until you did a bit of reasearch on the subject you were blaming dogs peeing on lamposts for the issue.
You then found out that most dog owners use spot on hair and skin treatments, you then changed your focus to dogs hitting the water, aka your last photo's.
My point about anglers smothering themselves with whatever repellent gets casually brushed aside with the dog theme.
So as before, keep posting about dogs on the water with photo's, albeit a rarity in reality, and I will keep reminding you about anglers use of chemicals.
Bert
 

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