Poor casting technique or mismatched rod and ljne ?

fishing hobo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
2,078
Location
Scotland
Hobo

I didn't reply earlier because in truth I really didn't understand what you were getting at. I think the penny has now dropped about length of line and casting arc. It's about keeping the rod tip travelling in a straight line rather than an an arc. ? With short line the rod does not bend much so its necessary to have a small arc cast otherwise the rod tip and line will be too low at the ends of the stroke. With longer line length the rod is bent more mid-stroke (I.e. the rod tip is lower) so you can lengthen the arc without the rod tip at the end of the stroke (where the rod is unloaded and hence straight) dropping below where it is mid-stroke. Is my understanding correct ?

Also I think I now understand your pictogram. My initial research around casting seemed to advocate that beginners should try not to use any wrist movement (pivot the rod only at the elbow). You are saying I should be using the wrist also - but only at the end of the stroke. Is that right ?

Cheers

Alan
Alan, first point, that is correct. If you move the rod tip well below the straight
line path (SLP), you will have too wide an arc and a dome shaped loop. Longer line means more weight outside the rod tip = more bend in the rod. If you stop too soon ie reducing casting arc, the tip will rise above the straight line (SLP) that the rod had travelled to this point and you are likely to have a tailing loop; when there is a bigger bend in the rod, you need greater distance for the rod tip to travel in order to get the rod tip to move through the straight line.

Second point, I use my wrist but not excessively at the ends of the cast but in a controlled manner. I usually use wrist more than other part of the arm on a short cast eg 20ft. For longer casts bigger muscles and more of the arm/body comes into play. You can cast perfectly well with a stiff wrist but it will limit your ability when you start improving. Beginners are told not to use their wrist because they use too much of it and in the wrong points in the cast. If you have too much tendency to use your wrist on the forward cast then consciously try not to use your wrist and squeeze your last 3 digits on to the grip at the stop on the forward cast, I found that advice very useful. It works well when you don't cast with a death grip which we all do in the beginning so much so that I ended up with trigger fingers 😅
 
Last edited:

AlanWxm

Active member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
29
Location
Wrexham
Guys thanks for all the input, but my brain is threatening to burst ! When I first posted silly me was possibly hoping that I'd get a reply saying I just needed to go up one line weight. I'm not going to give up just yet but I am wondering if, rather than fly fishing I should have taken up something simple like quantum mechanics
 

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
831
Location
Northants
Guys thanks for all the input, but my brain is threatening to burst ! When I first posted silly me was possibly hoping that I'd get a reply saying I just needed to go up one line weight. I'm not going to give up just yet but I am wondering if, rather than fly fishing I should have taken up something simple like quantum mechanics
Grief if only it was that simple?!🧐

We did about about 400 pages recently on the definition of tailing loops based on interpretations of Newton’s laws of motion before some moderator quoted Pauli’s exclusion principle and closed it down ….,and that wasn’t even the closed season!
.
if you just remember the cast in summary can be very simply stated in basic form as :-
iγ⋅∂ψ = mψ
It’s really very simple!🤓
or even interpreted as the tee shirt version
(i∂̸ – m) ψ = 0
you really can’t go far wrong…

( James 9118 will help you flesh out with those basics. And do make sure you fully grasp them before even thinking about double hauling or don’t you even think about coming back to us in tears because it’s all gone tits up! you will find no sympathy, none whatsoever. )

The simple cast can be summed up that everything going on in the back cast is reflected in the forward cast but you have to factor in the variable of the caster, tracking, SLP and whether he’s using a Maxcatch or shelled out the full price for a Rio gold.

Quantum physics is really very very tame in comparison to casting a fly rod and a lot less contentious and is, I think you’ll find, generally speaking, is something that we on the forum all heartily agree upon ..
Just wait till the middle of close season when some traditionalist asks DT v WF or whether there should be jelly in traditional trifle, then it will get really lairy.🤬
All best
Pom
 
Last edited:

Hardrar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2011
Messages
1,268
Location
North Yorkshire
Over the decades, I’ve taught and helped many anglers with their fly casting and watercraft skills, with on the whole positive results, However one chap sticks in my mind that ended up being a hopeless case.
He was a long term, died in the wool, coarse fisherman and despite many hours and sessions of tuition, I just couldn’t possess him to shorten his casting arc and arm drift. Even standing behind him and holding both his hands, he would forever “fight” me to lengthen his stroke and sweep.
One of the still waters I fish was managed at one time, by three men who were also keen coarse fisherman and all three never could master the Fly rod.
There seems to be a connection with an individual’s Angling past as to their speed and ability at mastering the basics of fly casting well. People who had never picked up a fishing rod before, are often the quickest, as they posses no pre conceived vices!
 

PaulF1

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
70
Location
Manchester UK
I only started fly fishing this year, to get back on the river after lock down. (I had tried it 20+ years ago for carp, but had no casting tuition.) I never expected to enjoy it so much!
I had half an hours tuition provided by a couple of genuine casting instructors, at a group session generously provided for free by my club. Then off I went to practice.
Consequently, my casting would probably make most on here weep. I could do a workable roll cast, a fairly awful looking, but mostly effective double spey (all river fishing for me), and obviously a standard (?) overhead cast.
I stopped fishing at the beginning of October, but took a rod to work on Monday as we have a bit of a field out back. Jesus. I didn't think you could forget anything so fast! All my casts were diabolical, knots akimbo.
Three half hour sessions in, and I am now almost back to where I was, only 6 weeks ago, but the cast I expected to be easiest, the roll cast, is the one I am struggling with most???? A slight wind into my face and 1 in 3 simply collapses. :mad: I've watched about 40 videos, and I'm obviously doing everything right! :giggle:
Back out to try again today, before the wind picks up.
Yeah, I know, find a casting instructor. To be honest I definitely could do with a lesson or two before the season begins again.
 
Last edited:

Vintage Badger

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 16, 2021
Messages
1,660
Location
Cheshire
I had a break from fly fishing for 10 years (pressure of work and lack of spare time) but decided to start again at the beginning of this year. I set my rod, line and leader up and had a practice session in the garden. It did not go well, tailing loops with almost every cast! So I tried again with a couple of my other fly rods and lines, but still the same issue. I thought I'd really lost the art of casting.

So I did the logical thing and booked a lesson with a fully qualified and experienced casting instructor at my local trout fishery. The first thing I found was that the resistance from the line on water loaded the rod much better when lifting off than when casting on a lawn. That, combined with input from the instructor, and within 20 minutes I was putting a good line out with no problems at all, with the recommendation that all I needed now was some practice.

We spent the rest of the lesson discussing leader set-ups, modern tippet materials, how to set up and fish a team of buzzers and the best tactics and flies to use on the stillwater I was fishing, and where to fish there at various times of day. Before the lesson was over I'd caught and safely landed my first rainbow trout for 10 years. So that lesson was money very well spent, and I'd strongly recommend anyone in a similar situation to book a one-to-one lesson with a good (and properly qualified) casting instructor. As the saying goes, "One show is worth a thousand tells"!
 
Last edited:

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
831
Location
Northants
Paul I have been doing a thread on casting practice and people kept saying to me about filming myself over and over again
finally an instructor giving me a lesson filmed what I was doing and I could not believe what was happening with my wrist on the forward cast I couldn’t recognise myself
A few days back I managed to get my camera out on the little tripod and set it up to cast (when unfortunately some walkers came past and decided to sit down on a little bridge and as a flask of coffee while watching me cast …so embarrassing) Anyway I cast a bit and when I finally got back home to the computer to see what I’ve been doing and check on my wrist I found I was doing it really well …but now my back cast was going back to far And for some obscure reason I was changing the timing of the haulvon the delivery cast ??!!!

The moral of the tail ?
you might think you can see what you’re doing and you may feel like you doing it right, but he is so handy to film yourself with your smart phone or a camera and just see what action you were actually doing.
 

PaulF1

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
70
Location
Manchester UK
Paul I have been doing a thread on casting practice and people kept saying to me about filming myself over and over again
finally an instructor giving me a lesson filmed what I was doing and I could not believe what was happening with my wrist on the forward cast I couldn’t recognise myself
A few days back I managed to get my camera out on the little tripod and set it up to cast (when unfortunately some walkers came past and decided to sit down on a little bridge and as a flask of coffee while watching me cast …so embarrassing) Anyway I cast a bit and when I finally got back home to the computer to see what I’ve been doing and check on my wrist I found I was doing it really well …but now my back cast was going back to far And for some obscure reason I was changing the timing of the haulvon the delivery cast ??!!!

The moral of the tail ?
you might think you can see what you’re doing and you may feel like you doing it right, but he is so handy to film yourself with your smart phone or a camera and just see what action you were actually doing.
I have a decent camera and tripod. If it stays fairly calm next week I might give it a go. No members of the public can see the field! (y)
 

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
9,599
Location
Wiltshire
It's only string on a stick - just wave it about a bit.
I don't often agree with what Tangled writes but this just about sums it up. People DO love turning what is basically a very simple process that anyone can master in a few hours into something requiring a Masters in physics to even understand the terminology.

This week I went to a meeting and lunch and as part of it was required to cast a fly line and try to hook play and land a trout. Easy? Try it totally blindfold.`Robbed of one's sight one had to concentrate totally on feeling the weight of the line in the air. It was very disorientating
 

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
831
Location
Northants
I have a decent camera and tripod. If it stays fairly calm next week I might give it a go. No members of the public can see the field! (y)
I don’t know what our resident guides advice about practising casting with the wind but personally if I have space… if I’m doing the triangle exercise I keep the wind behind me and if I’m casting normal overhead I try and have the wind on my shoulder at my hauling arm.
Obviously in fishing conditions you don’t get the choice, but when you’re at the stage of trying to perfect the basics I don’t think it helps having the wind in your face or restricting your back cast from unfurling fully if you have a choice.
 

fishing hobo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
2,078
Location
Scotland
Guys thanks for all the input, but my brain is threatening to burst ! When I first posted silly me was possibly hoping that I'd get a reply saying I just needed to go up one line weight. I'm not going to give up just yet but I am wondering if, rather than fly fishing I should have taken up something simple like quantum mechanics
This is why we are telling you to go get a lesson, not a new rod and line. I can guarantee you that the money spent on lessons are well spent. You have also turned down James who offered to teach you. Reading and watching YouTube will NEVER surpass one-to-one tuition. If you were up Glasgow way I too will be happy to have a look but James is a superior caster by a million miles than me so I suggest you ask the man nicely 😉
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,732
Location
South Northants
I don’t know what our resident guides advice about practising casting with the wind but personally if I have space… if I’m doing the triangle exercise I keep the wind behind me and if I’m casting normal overhead I try and have the wind on my shoulder at my hauling arm.
Sound advice.

The 'triangle method' exercise is a basic exercise, which, to work well, needs the wind effect to be equal on both sides - forward and backward cast.

With the overhead cast, fishing related, differing skills/abilities are required if the wind is from the back, the front or either side. Each needs differing understanding of what is required to overcome the effects of the wind.
 

BobP

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
9,599
Location
Wiltshire
I don’t know what our resident guides advice about practising casting with the wind but personally if I have space… if I’m doing the triangle exercise I keep the wind behind me and if I’m casting normal overhead I try and have the wind on my shoulder at my hauling arm.
Obviously in fishing conditions you don’t get the choice, but when you’re at the stage of trying to perfect the basics I don’t think it helps having the wind in your face or restricting your back cast from unfurling fully if you have a choice.
Fairly obvious, but we don't always have the option. Given the choice I'll get beginners casting with the wind. Yes, it flattens out the loop on the back cast, but also helps the forward cast to get out reasonably straight. If I'm obliged to cast into the wind on a large stillwater I'll uprate the line weight by 1 or sometimes 2 if it is very blustery. Under those conditions the fish are either close in or not there, so a 10-12 meter cast with no more than 10' of leader and a single fly is good enough. It ain't fun which is why I won't do it unless I'm sure the rewards are there.

I'm left-handed so again. given the choice, I prefer a breeze off my right, but I can manage a breeze off my left providing it is not too strong or gusty.
 

fishing hobo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
2,078
Location
Scotland
I only started fly fishing this year, to get back on the river after lock down. (I had tried it 20+ years ago for carp, but had no casting tuition.) I never expected to enjoy it so much!
I had half an hours tuition provided by a couple of genuine casting instructors, at a group session generously provided for free by my club. Then off I went to practice.
Consequently, my casting would probably make most on here weep. I could do a workable roll cast, a fairly awful looking, but mostly effective double spey (all river fishing for me), and obviously a standard (?) overhead cast.
I stopped fishing at the beginning of October, but took a rod to work on Monday as we have a bit of a field out back. Jesus. I didn't think you could forget anything so fast! All my casts were diabolical, knots akimbo.
Three half hour sessions in, and I am now almost back to where I was, only 6 weeks ago, but the cast I expected to be easiest, the roll cast, is the one I am struggling with most???? A slight wind into my face and 1 in 3 simply collapses. :mad: I've watched about 40 videos, and I'm obviously doing everything right! :giggle:
Back out to try again today, before the wind picks up.
Yeah, I know, find a casting instructor. To be honest I definitely could do with a lesson or two before the season begins again.
I will let you in on a secret. To do the roll cast well is much more difficult than the overhead cast 😉, even more so with the wind in your face. I personally avoid roll casting in a headwind if I have alternatives. If you have a tail wind, well easy peasy you can bang out 50-60ft easy
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,732
Location
South Northants
If you have limited access to water and wish to practice your roll-cast on grass, a good idea is to construct a roll-cast leader to replicate water tension.

Tie up a 9ft leader using 3X material (usually around 8lb BS) with 4 turn blood knot joints every foot and leave 1.5 inch tags on each side of the knot. Where the fly should be on the point, tie in a good fluffy piece of wool.

Such an arrangement goes some way to replicating water surface tension on grass.
 

fishing hobo

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
2,078
Location
Scotland
If you have limited access to water and wish to practice your roll-cast on grass, a good idea is to construct a roll-cast leader to replicate water tension.

Tie up a 9ft leader using 3X material (usually around 8lb BS) with 4 turn blood knot joints every foot and leave 1.5 inch tags on each side of the knot. Where the fly should be on the point, tie in a good fluffy piece of wool.

Such an arrangement goes some way to replicating water surface tension on grass.
Or ask someone to step on the leader and let it go once loop is on it's way. Clipboard is said to be another alternative (clip the fluff) if you don't have anyone to help.
 

AlanWxm

Active member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
29
Location
Wrexham
Over the decades, I’ve taught and helped many anglers with their fly casting and watercraft skills, with on the whole positive results, However one chap sticks in my mind that ended up being a hopeless case.
He was a long term, died in the wool, coarse fisherman and despite many hours and sessions of tuition, I just couldn’t possess him to shorten his casting arc and arm drift. Even standing behind him and holding both his hands, he would forever “fight” me to lengthen his stroke and sweep.
One of the still waters I fish was managed at one time, by three men who were also keen coarse fisherman and all three never could master the Fly rod.
There seems to be a connection with an individual’s Angling past as to their speed and ability at mastering the basics of fly casting well. People who had never picked up a fishing rod before, are often the quickest, as they posses no pre conceived vices!
It's some consolation to know it's not just me that has not taken to fly casting like a duck to water. Still early days - hopefully I'm not in the hopeless case bucket yet.
 

Latest posts

Top