Qing Ya Xi

taterdu

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 11, 2012
Messages
9,559
Location
South Northants
a historic, surely? :confused:

Col
That's a tricky one and similarly problematic as whether it's a or an hotel. Simply, it is usual / common to use 'an' where the 'h' is not pronounced and where the first sound is a vowel - hence it would be an honour, like we would say an ant or an orange. Over time pronunciation changes and in the past historic was commonly pronounced as 'istoric' and hotel as 'otel . . . hence the common use of 'an'.

Because of common use, both a and an are acceptable for words phrases as 'an horrific accident', 'an hotel of high standard' etc etc.
 

Guest109

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 29, 2016
Messages
66
I put it to you that, when spoken, the h in historic should not be silent in any accent - not least my Scottish one. Freedom! :p

When written, it's a helicopter, a horse, a hotel, a historic, etc... :)

Col
Yup. The 'h' is only dropped in certain phonetic contexts. For example, if you say 'car' in many English accents there is no 'r', but if you say 'car in the garage' there is now an 'r' inserted between the words 'car in' to avoid the vocalic sequence across the word boundary. In some American or Scottish or West Country (rhotic) accents there is 'r' in the word, and obviously it is still present across the word boundary 'car in'.

A historic and an istoric is similar to this.
 
Last edited:

Cap'n Fishy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
25,329
Location
Embra
it is usual / common to use 'an' where the 'h' is not pronounced and where the first sound is a vowel - hence it would be an honour...
Sure, it's 'an honour', as the h in honour is silent. But the h in hotel and historic is not silent, or at least it's not supposed to be silent. I would never say 'an historic' or 'an hotel', for the same reason I would never say 'an horse, an horse, my kingdom for an horse' - because I'm pronouncing the h at the start of the word.

... like we would say an ant or an orange...
An orange is an interesting one, as it was originally a norange. Spanish - orange = naranja, etc. Over time, the n migrated from the norange to the indefinite article. That's a 'thing' and has a word for it, if I could remember what it was... :eek:mg:

Col

---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

For example, if you say 'car' in many English accents there is no 'r'.
Aye, ye picked the wrrrrong perrrson to put that example to. My guid Scottish carrrr always has loads of rs in it! :p

Col
 

tiddler1

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
2,741
Location
Essex
I'll bet there is a lot of delving into our old school grammar books to sort this lot out.:D
 

Cap'n Fishy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
25,329
Location
Embra
What's the system then?

a hat
a horse
a habit
a handle
a halfhearted
a hammer
a hard-boiled
a handsome

So, why an hotel?

a hideous
a hideout
a hierarchy
a hippopotamus
a hit-man
a hitch
a history

So, why an historic?

Is it stress on the second vowel, perhaps?

Col
 

JeffR

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
9,674
Location
Staffs
Froating rine and dry fry onry!
I think its the march of the Tenkara army, coming over 'ere, teaching us traditional far eastern techniques and funny words....

A far bigger issue for me, rather than names of posh lodges next to exclusive rivers, is the exclusive rivers part. Miles and miles of prime trout river across the UK denied access to all but the select few. What a waste of a natural resource.
 

luke troutstalker

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2011
Messages
11,359
Location
Cheshire.
Just to throw a bandana skin in there, if you were to ask a scouser what he had for breakfast, he might say " a egg " :eek:mg:
 

Cap'n Fishy

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 29, 2008
Messages
25,329
Location
Embra
To quote from one of the best songs ever written:

Now Ernie had a rival, a evil-looking man,
Called Two-Ton Ted from Teddington and he drove the baker's van.


---------- Post added at 01:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

What a waste of a natural resource.
Maybe if Jeremy Corbyn gets in, he will nationalise the rivers? :whistle:

Col
 

robjcm14

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
72
Thank you for your responses ladies and gentlemen. It looks like the majority of you are not particularly bothered about a section of the Test being (mockingly imo) renamed in this way. Unfortunately, some of you have missed the point entirely, and others are apparently more interested in grammar than the erosion of English tradition. I would hazard a guess at the age group of this forum (mostly 60+?) would mean that most contributors would have voted for Brexit, with the main objective of returning this country to what it should be. Therefore, please don't be complacent about such threats (non-European) coming our way. The main threat is the wave of Chinese wealth (gained from illegally plagiarising western ip, low paid sweat shop labour and a totally cynical, authoritarian and illegitimate political system). Their ill gotten gains are now being freely spent on buying up everything British. It's all going to end in tears! I have written to Simon Cooper to ask him for contact details of the new owner(s) to whom I shall make representations. That's my spleen safely vented so Happy New Year to all, or probably better said as 'Kung Hei Fat Choy'.
 

midway

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
955
Thank you for your responses ladies and gentlemen. It looks like the majority of you are not particularly bothered about a section of the Test being (mockingly imo) renamed in this way. Unfortunately, some of you have missed the point entirely, and others are apparently more interested in grammar than the erosion of English tradition. I would hazard a guess at the age group of this forum (mostly 60+?) would mean that most contributors would have voted for Brexit, with the main objective of returning this country to what it should be. Therefore, please don't be complacent about such threats (non-European) coming our way. The main threat is the wave of Chinese wealth (gained from illegally plagiarising western ip, low paid sweat shop labour and a totally cynical, authoritarian and illegitimate political system). Their ill gotten gains are now being freely spent on buying up everything British. It's all going to end in tears! I have written to Simon Cooper to ask him for contact details of the new owner(s) to whom I shall make representations. That's my spleen safely vented so Happy New Year to all, or probably better said as 'Kung Hei Fat Choy'.
Quite correct. I'm over 60, voted Brexit, and don't give a flying **** about the Test or the new owners of the Kingfisher lodge and fishings.

I understand that you do though, and I respect that - which is why I didn't respond until now.

I didn't vote Brexit to have anything return to how it was before. I voted because the system is broken and needs to change. I hope the change will be for the better. I have my doubts because politicians are involved and they are, mostly, habitual liars.

The grammar thing is part of the sense of humour of this forum - I found it quite instructive :D .
 
Top