River Lugg

shropshire_lad

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Too far away from the wild places!
A while ago everyone was an international trade expert. Then with days of training everyone became a global epidemiologist. Now all the same people are expert environmentalists.

I can only just keep up with the spelling...ain’t social media great 🤣
I think it's more a case of everyone being an expert in what actually happened, the chain of events and motives. That's far from clear.

Two scenarios, and I stress scenarios, from the info we have seen reported.

The first, the farmer was pissed off at his planning application being refused and the "clipboard" mentality of the EA, etc, so took matters in his own hands.

The second. The farmer was genuinely trying to help locals out given no lack of action from the authorities on flooding and another winter pending - as has been said above, a local "Robin Hood".

If it's the first, throw the book at him. If it's the second, it's a bit less clear. Either way, this incident can't now be swept under the carpet or it will set a precedent but I'm not holding my breath.
 

andygrey

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Well it would appear that NE, the EA and the Forestry Commission are talking tough on this and have described it as 'unconsented works'. Let's hope that they walk-the walk as well.

 

shropshire_lad

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What this thread needs is someone who used to work in the EA.
Someone who could tell us that what the Lugg really needs now is a good slurry pollution which it will recover from in a matter of months if not weeks or even minutes.
Someone who could tell us we are all part of the problem (but he isn't when it comes to the flea treatment on his dogs).
Someone who could mention that he works as a guide.
If only we had a member like that...
Maybe the attitude of the EA is best summed up by a notice pinned to a meeting room door when I visited their offices a few years ago "Please Keep Quiet - Yoga Session" :sleep:

True but I have to fess up - it was lunchtime and I'm a fan of Yoga - I have to be, my wife is doing it all the time! (y)
 

Laxdale

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Anyone got before and after pictures of the upstream side of the bridge?
Interesting the way that so many on here immediately play the man and not the ball as soon as anyone disagrees with them.
 

loxie

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It is obvious from some of the comments that most of the posters have never experienced flooding. I have 3 times,having tracked down the actual source I was told by the EA that it was not their problem as the sluices and weird had fallen into disrepair years previously and it wasn't their job to reinstate them
It's nothing to do with flooding. Speeding up to water flow and denaturing water courses only makes flooding worse. I suspect I have rather more experience of flooding than most.
Have you had water over 12 inches deep through the front door and out through the back. Until you have you do not have experience

Many times. 3 times in one year. I have, however got progressively better at protecting and mitigating. Last big flood was 2012 and the flood peaked at midnight on Saturday night. I started the clean up at 5 in the morning and we sat down to Sunday lunch in a perfectly clean and tidy house, where a foot of muddy water had been running through 12 hours previously. I cannot get insurance so I have invested in resilience.
 

glueman

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It's nothing to do with flooding. Speeding up to water flow and denaturing water courses only makes flooding worse. I suspect I have rather more experience of flooding than most.


Many times. 3 times in one year. I have, however got progressively better at protecting and mitigating. Last big flood was 2012 and the flood peaked at midnight on Saturday night. I started the clean up at 5 in the morning and we sat down to Sunday lunch in a perfectly clean and tidy house, where a foot of muddy water had been running through 12 hours previously. I cannot get insurance so I have invested in resilience.
We were 2 twice in a year a month apart. Our house was not new build but 300 years old. The EA as I said showed no interest even when shown old maps with sluices and weirs shown their answer not our problem.
 

andygrey

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Thanks. They are pictures from the bridge, not of the bridge. I was hoping to try and see what sort of obstruction , if any, there was at the bridge.
I have seen one somewhere but can't find it at the moment. It shows a fenced cattle drink near the bridge, difficult to say exactly but probably only a few yards away from it. This would probably cause bank instability and increase of silting in the area. I would imagine that this was the 'blockage' that has been mentioned. It certainly didn't extend 1 mile.
 

Hardrar

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Such a complex issue, no river is ever “natural” as it runs over flood plain land, only over rock in upland districts. They are all managed by man and the farmed landscape I.e. a cut that was regularly dredged from Victorian times, a few maybe a bit before.
If you don’t keep dredging, they silt up, spill over and reclaim the flood plain, to marsh or delta, the river effectively then disappears and you just have a wetland.
Our local Yorkshire Ouse was dredged every single year from Goole to Selby and beyond towards York until the late Eighties,It hasn’t been dredged for 30 years now and the estimation is there is at least 30 feet, or more silt in it.
Ships carrying 14/1600t would regularly travel to Selby and smaller ones up to York on the tide. There were several shipyards in Selby, now they cannot navigate the river. Ultimately causing flooding further upstream, slows the rivers pace down and increased silt deposits faster still.
I totally agree that dredging causes ecological damage, but not dredging is equally as bad, if not worse, it’s how it’s managed that’s crucial.
There are many “now dry” flood plains in my Native Yorkshire- every single one is 100% man made and totally unnatural. The Sea would travel about 18 miles North from the Humber to Cranswick if it were not for Barmston Drain and the River Hull, both created by Dutch river engineers in Victorian times, Lake Pickering, Vale of York, Barmby on the Marsh, all well below sea level and artificially pumped, with man cut rivers on them.
The Ea and IDB’s are massively underfunded and Ill informed which is such a shame.
All chalk streams are man made, to harness power for water mills, not as a fishery and must be managed or they will silt up, over a few decades.
My local river system, the Yorkshire Derwent, was navigable past Malton by Barge from the Humber up to the mid 70s it’s now barriered off from the Saline Ouse for drinking water and none navigable with around 22 feet of silt in it now. It was dredged every year for centuries and the wildlife was more abundant then, than it is now.
The landowner involved here had the full backing of the parish council and local residents.
A lot of diffuse pollution is caused by loss of grassland to the plough, adjoining river systems and intensive use of crop protection products, veterinary medicines and mined fertilisers. The issue is the massively burgeoning World population needs to be fed, it’s how Governments manage ( really badly these days) that food production, that matters.
I’m not taking sides on this, so please don’t berate me, every party is wrong, just pointing out the facts as they are. I have delivered papers on this, with stoney silences following.
Extremely complex and as said underfunded- sad to see how everyone takes sides and blames, instead of working together, to create balance.
 
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PaulD

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You can see how 'sympathetic' the works carried out were to the flora and fauna . . .

Lugg.jpeg
 

bonefishblues

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You can see it at a distance in one of the earlier images, but seeing it up close like that is truly shocking. I really thought we'd all (including 60-odd year old farmers) moved on from such gross acts of vandalism.
 

Reg Wyatt

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Worse thing to do to help alleviate flooding is to straighten, dredge and pull out trees etc. It's not about moving water downstream as quickly as possible but rather as safely and as controlled as possible. That often means holding back the water, not letting it all go in a torrent. This 'helpful farmer' has well and truly shot himself in the foot as his neighbours will find out.
I cannot understand how he managed to carry out such substantive vandalism without the EA being alerted? Did he do it in twenty minutes?

Reg Wyatt
 

shropshire_lad

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I cannot understand how he managed to carry out such substantive vandalism without the EA being alerted? Did he do it in twenty minutes?

Reg Wyatt
That's the mystery to me too. Maybe the authorities were alerted but did not have the powers to enter the land and stop it? I do get the impression the authorities are now involved in fighting a rearguard action given the uproar this has caused.

As for the EA, I have never worked for them but did work in the water industry for many years. There were those who moved to the EA when the water industry was privatised who were on good deals, probably most retired now. However, subsequently the EA has offered very poor salaries, barely enough to live on in the more expensive parts of the country. It may be staff retention is poor and they don't get the most experienced people. Imagine a junior member of staff being sent out to try and stop works like this o_O
 

glueman

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Worse thing to do to help alleviate flooding is to straighten, dredge and pull out trees etc. It's not about moving water downstream as quickly as possible but rather as safely and as controlled as possible. That often means holding back the water, not letting it all go in a torrent. This 'helpful farmer' has well and truly shot himself in the foot as his neighbours will find out.
I cannot understand how he managed to carry out such substantive vandalism without the EA being alerted? Did he do it in twenty minutes?

Reg Wyatt
So water should be held back,when questioning the EA about the floods we had had and mentioning the non maintenance of sluices and weirs the response was basically not our problem
 

boisker

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That's the mystery to me too. Maybe the authorities were alerted but did not have the powers to enter the land and stop it? I do get the impression the authorities are now involved in fighting a rearguard action given the uproar this has caused.

As for the EA, I have never worked for them but did work in the water industry for many years. There were those who moved to the EA when the water industry was privatised who were on good deals, probably most retired now. However, subsequently the EA has offered very poor salaries, barely enough to live on in the more expensive parts of the country. It may be staff retention is poor and they don't get the most experienced people. Imagine a junior member of staff being sent out to try and stop works like this o_O

they’ve lost huge numbers of staff, same as NE, due to ‘austerity’, good old David thought services wouldn’t be effected if they lost 50% of staff... moral low, lots of experienced staff left on early retirement...
....people rightly get angry when they don’t get a response from EA
.... but when there’s no-one home you can’t expect a response.
 
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