Rivers Tree Planting Scheme

williegunn

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2006
Messages
6,931
Location
Carron Speyside
Has anyone worked out how much water all these trees they are planting require?

There was a project on the Spey System which had to be delayed as it was impossible to source enough native trees.
 

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
681
Location
Northants
If they’re backside and they go in as bare root whips or feathers they should only need help in the first years as the roots get established stronger than the bank side vegetation.
when we planted the banks I think I went down twice in that first summer with a bucket and a rope . One person in the water controlling the bucket one on the bank watering the basin round the tree. I also cleared any weeds in the basin once in that year. You could use circles of weed cloth if there is a large number of them .

The soil basin only needs to be a few inches deep and soon breaks down and is only really needed if moisture is likely to be a problem
Chances are if these are flood plain plantings they’re likely to be in a high water table and species like willows , alders , etc planted as bare root whips will have no problem getting established without any help at all.
Bit rough but that should show what I’m rambling on about :-
A54044E3-E09F-4C05-9733-0BE30A8A9EC4.jpeg

Edit : we did one area of willows that really well established now just by snapping twigs of a nearby willow and pushing about 60 into the ground , one every metre. They nearly all took.
 

aenoon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
13,335
Location
Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line
If they’re backside and they go in as bare root whips or feathers they should only need help in the first years as the roots get established stronger than the bank side vegetation.
when we planted the banks I think I went down twice in that first summer with a bucket and a rope . One person in the water controlling the bucket one on the bank watering the basin round the tree. I also cleared any weeds in the basin once in that year. You could use circles of weed cloth if there is a large number of them .

The soil basin only needs to be a few inches deep and soon breaks down and is only really needed if moisture is likely to be a problem
Chances are if these are flood plain plantings they’re likely to be in a high water table and species like willows , alders , etc planted as bare root whips will have no problem getting established without any help at all.
Bit rough but that should show what I’m rambling on about :-View attachment 44089
Edit : we did one area of willows that really well established now just by snapping twigs of a nearby willow and pushing about 60 into the ground , one every metre. They nearly all took.
In full blown forestry establishment, a technique know as screefing does much the same as above.
Basically, a tool known as a mattock is used to scrape away the surface growth down to top soil, and tree is planted into the bare earth therein.
Good thing about the mattock is it does both jobs, the scraping away bit with one end of the blade, and the cut for planting with the other.
Very effective.
 

bobmiddlepoint

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2017
Messages
3,286
Location
Where I want to be
Has anyone worked out how much water all these trees they are planting require?

I don't know the answer to this but I wonder if they actually need more water than the ground cover plants that they are going to shade out and replace? In my neck of the woods trees would shade out bracken which I imagine sucks up a fair bit of water.


Andy
 

aenoon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
13,335
Location
Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line
I don't know the answer to this but I wonder if they actually need more water than the ground cover plants that they are going to shade out and replace? In my neck of the woods trees would shade out bracken which I imagine sucks up a fair bit of water.


Andy
The answer is they dont! Thats what the root system does!
Trees planted in the wild are not garden pot plants.
 

Bobfly2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
740
A mature woodland canopy will transpire a greater amount than grassland or heather or bracken because of the much greater leaf area index. Soils under woodland are drier as incoming light rains often do not reach the ground having been intercepted and then evaporating from the leaves.
 

aenoon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
13,335
Location
Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line
A mature woodland canopy will transpire a greater amount than grassland or heather or bracken because of the much greater leaf area index. Soils under woodland are drier as incoming light rains often do not reach the ground having been intercepted and then evaporating from the leaves.
Yep, but not when first planted though!
 

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
681
Location
Northants
My concern about this focus is that landowners down here have been told there will be tree planting grants available, but it’s going to be funded by stopping the set aside grants which were set up by the EU originally.
This had done so much to create wild life corridors and diversity around the crops . It’s cut down on pesticide use. And for us with streams / rivers bordered by the set aside it’s granted us 3m protected wild vegetation and habitat, protecting the water course to an extent from diffuse pollution , siltation and spray drift. The big benefit for the river was that insects like Dunn’s and some sedges did not need to wander too far from the water for cover to safely return in numbers as spinners etc to carry on the next generation and thus populations exploded.

When we first got set aside you would count mayflys in just tens, within a few seasons it was 100’s, now it’s tens of 1,000’s and the hatch and fall occurs from May to July . They leave the water and immediately settle in the long grasses to change into the final stage, in the past they’d fly 100 m or more to find suitable cover and the odd straggler would manage to return.
Same with the LDO’s and spurwings, IBD and some of the sedges that congregate over large wild flowers on the bankside to mate.

There are however other sedges, especially some of the micro sedges and agapatus that will benefit from trees for this, as do the BWO’s and I think pale wateries. So trees are great for some of the other trout food and hopefully for some the Sherry spinners will be returning to their waters in tens of thousands rather than a meagre population hatching out and flying hundreds of yards to the nearest trees and then getting either blown off course from returning to the water or mistaking wet tarmac for river and wasting the next generation in a puddle far from the stream.

This policy is really encouraging for me, and a refreshing change from ministers talking about dredging and straightening water courses( like H2O was all rivers contained). And finally addressing the flooding problem at source. But sadly I think it’s going to be at the cost of the rich diversity that has been achieved downstream and without the financial insentive I can imagine our reprian land owners will again be ploughing as close as possible to maximise profits and the insect populations and water purity will suffer for it!
 
Last edited:

Whinging pom

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Messages
681
Location
Northants
There is still set aside grants down here for the next year or two available through the EA and Natural England from my understanding they are to be fazed out for tree planting grants. My outlook maybe polarised by local topography but it’s more like robbing Peter to pay Paul . The set aside in rural England and Wales has created a wild life highways linking towns and villages and not just preserving, but increasing populations and diversity of key species. We need trees and hedgerows but we need the open herbaceous diversity too. So much good work has been done and so much achieved it would be another environmental tragedy to reverse those gains. Trees are needed too but they are a different eco system.
 

coire

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
82
Location
Highland
Thats a strange one Malcolm.
Given the Forest research department did a lot of seed collection in that area?
It seems even stranger given that two of the largest tree nurseries in Scotland are located at Fochabers and Forres. However, despite them growing millions of trees, demand is so high in recent years that you generally cant by trees "off the shelf" if you need a reasonable quantity; probably high thousands and certainly if you need tens of thousands - 12 month lead in minimum and longer if you need decent size bare root trees.

I'm guessing the Strathspey planting scheme mentioned will use native trees which can add to availability difficulties. Best practice is that native trees should be from the correct seed zone (UK climatic, geological, genetic tree zones are mapped out) and, if a grant scheme is involved, it will be a strict condition that the trees are from the correct zone, evidenced by a seed certificate.

Forestry and Land Scotland (old FC Scotland) also have a nursery near Elgin that may have taken a lot of the seed you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure they just supply the state forest.

Not easy being in the tree nursery trade - just over a decade some were having to burn millions of trees they couldn't sell!
 

coire

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 8, 2013
Messages
82
Location
Highland
Edit : we did one area of willows that really well established now just by snapping twigs of a nearby willow and pushing about 60 into the ground , one every metre. They nearly all took.
This can work really well with willow species. You can get lots of cuttings very easily with a sharp knife or secateurs - with permission of the tree owner!, although I am guilty of occasional "gorilla" forestry with a few cuttings on winter walks;)
 

aenoon

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
13,335
Location
Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line
It seems even stranger given that two of the largest tree nurseries in Scotland are located at Fochabers and Forres. However, despite them growing millions of trees, demand is so high in recent years that you generally cant by trees "off the shelf" if you need a reasonable quantity; probably high thousands and certainly if you need tens of thousands - 12 month lead in minimum and longer if you need decent size bare root trees.

I'm guessing the Strathspey planting scheme mentioned will use native trees which can add to availability difficulties. Best practice is that native trees should be from the correct seed zone (UK climatic, geological, genetic tree zones are mapped out) and, if a grant scheme is involved, it will be a strict condition that the trees are from the correct zone, evidenced by a seed certificate.

Forestry and Land Scotland (old FC Scotland) also have a nursery near Elgin that may have taken a lot of the seed you mentioned, but I'm pretty sure they just supply the state forest.

Not easy being in the tree nursery trade - just over a decade some were having to burn millions of trees they couldn't sell!
Yep, I know all that, having been based at Speymouth Forest Office, Fochabers, whilst tree climbing to collect seeds!
At the time there was hundreds of specimen seed trees in Moray and surrounding areas.
Most were bound for the Bush research division, Edinburgh, and then farmed out to F.C nurseries, including the one at Kinloss, and at Newton, where I also spent time lifting and bundling plants, all mainly 2or 3 year old plants.
And yes, the numbers were in the millions, not thousands!
You are correct that orders placed with the private sector aka Christies at Fochabers and Forres need to be ordered 1 or even 2 years in advance, but they do specialize in native stock though, but the main production then was for forestry markets.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Top