sinking the tippet with pva?

kingf000

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I've been always very wary about using any chemical product on anything that comes into contact with water. Being a lifelong ecologist I contented myself with river mud and my own spit to break the surface tension with thin tippets. It usually worked well for me and I didn't bother about the continuous repeating. The trouble it takes eased my conscience and didn't compromise my respect for water and everything living in or of it. May sound far fetched, but all the manmade alternatives definitely were from my point of view. Each to their own of course.
That is something that has always concerned me with carp anglers using PVA bags in lakes! Al least in a river it gets washed downstream and out into the sea, where eventually it is degraded to form naturally occuring carboxylic acids.
 

glueman

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kingf000 some of your uses for Toluene are dubious for example Nail Varnish Remover

Generally nail polish remover is made of acetone, which is a solvent that dissolves the film of the nail polish. Non-acetone polish removers contain ethyl acetate or methyl ethyl keytone as their active ingredient and are less effective for removing nail polish than acetone
 

lhomme

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That is something that has always concerned me with carp anglers using PVA bags in lakes! Al least in a river it gets washed downstream and out into the sea, where eventually it is degraded to form naturally occuring carboxylic acids.
You'll find it's much easier to sink a tippet on flowing than in stagnant water. That is why still water anglers have more problems with it and will look for more alternatives to achieve their goal. So the problem concerning chemicals remains a manmade one.
 

glueman

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I do not know how much Toluene is being put into some of these home made concoctions but if you look at the safety information sheets you will find it should not be disposed of in water courses or drains due to it being toxic to the enviroment
 

silver creek

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The late Steve Partin used to sell small bottles of a photo wetting agent for same & the makers of "Gink" also did a product called "Xink" not tried Either Steve's one or Xink though so unable to comment any further,

Indeed.

Kodak Photo Flo is a surfactant or wetting agent. The surfactant in Photo Flo is propylene glycol which destroys the surface tension of water and allows tippets to sink.


A commonly available wetting agent/surfactant is ethylene glycol which is the chemical in automobile antifreeze. A small amount in a bottle can be used to sink tippets.

 

kingf000

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I do not know how much Toluene is being put into some of these home made concoctions but if you look at the safety information sheets you will find it should not be disposed of in water courses or drains due to it being toxic to the enviroment
I'm using very little toluene and I dry it off before use. So virtually no toluene hits the water, only the residue that hasn't evaporated. LC50 for rainbow trout is 96h exposure to 7.63 mg/ltr, daphnia 6 mg/l. There will be no where near that amount of toluene in the fly floatant left on the fly. In any event, I'll probably initially try IPA with the silicone oil. IPA has LC50's around 1,000 mg/ltr.
 

kingf000

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kingf000 some of your uses for Toluene are dubious for example Nail Varnish Remover

Generally nail polish remover is made of acetone, which is a solvent that dissolves the film of the nail polish. Non-acetone polish removers contain ethyl acetate or methyl ethyl keytone as their active ingredient and are less effective for removing nail polish than acetone
I was simply quoting the literature:
https://www.beyondtoxics.org/work/g...roducts/nail-polish-and-nail-polish-remover/; https://www.worldofchemicals.com/42...uene-biodegration-using-jet-loop-reactor.html
 

glueman

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Toluene is used in the making of some nail varnishes but I would not like to put it on my hands. When I was using it back long ago when on your hands it turned them white due to its degreasing effect.
 

glueman

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I have looked at your first thing beyond toxics there is no mention of nail varnish remover just the fact as I have said it is used in the manufacture.Nail varnish remover used to be pure acetone and I would even say to some of my customers if you run short of acetone pop down Boots but the formulas were altered and the new version was not as good a degreaser
 

kingf000

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I have looked at your first thing beyond toxics there is no mention of nail varnish remover just the fact as I have said it is used in the manufacture.Nail varnish remover used to be pure acetone and I would even say to some of my customers if you run short of acetone pop down Boots but the formulas were altered and the new version was not as good a degreaser
OK you don't like the first reference but accept that it is used in nail varnish and nail varnish thinners?

If you do a Google search on uses of toluene, it comes up first with:
Toluene has numerous commercial and industrial applications: it is a solvent in paints, lacquers, thinners, glues, correction fluid, and nail polish remover, and is used in the printing and leather tanning processes
also:
Toluene aromatic hydrocarbon solvent is a solvent in paints, lacquers, thinners, glues, correction fluid, carbon nanotubes and nail polish remover
In many commercial products, toluene is used as a solvent that is present in paint thinners, nail polish remover, glues, and correction fluid.

So as I said before, if it wasn't OK from a safety standpoint, it wouldn't have such widespread use.
 

glueman

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OK you don't like the first reference but accept that it is used in nail varnish and nail varnish thinners?

If you do a Google search on uses of toluene, it comes up first with:
Toluene has numerous commercial and industrial applications: it is a solvent in paints, lacquers, thinners, glues, correction fluid, and nail polish remover, and is used in the printing and leather tanning processes
also:
Toluene aromatic hydrocarbon solvent is a solvent in paints, lacquers, thinners, glues, correction fluid, carbon nanotubes and nail polish remover
In many commercial products, toluene is used as a solvent that is present in paint thinners, nail polish remover, glues, and correction fluid.

So as I said before, if it wasn't OK from a safety standpoint, it wouldn't have such widespread use.
I think you have misread or i have found a different site. Having sold it years ago and used it on our 2 part glazing system I would never ever suggest using it instead of acetone for nail varnish removing it would do untold damage to your nails in its neat form
 

Cap'n Fishy

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So as I said before, if it wasn't OK from a safety standpoint, it wouldn't have such widespread use.

Bear in mind you can buy and smoke cigarettes, and buy and drink alcohol, both of which are widespread and can kill you.

A great many aromatic hydrocarbons, particularly polycyclic ones, flag up on structural alert predictive programmes for carcinogenicity. Meanwhile, back-testing the 1000s of chemicals that no one knew were hazardous is a very long-term procedure. Nitromors paint-strippers was based on dichloromethane (simple halogenated hydrocarbon - another structural alert) and was widely available in DIY stores at a time that we were using dichloromethane as a positive control in our lab's test for vapour-phase mutagenicity. I think nowadays there is an effort being made to phase-out dichloromethane in paint strippers.

Naphthalene (the simplest polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon) moths balls... once common... now not so much, due to association with carcinogenicity and a variety of other toxic effects...

Likewise, trichloroethylene was widely used as a dry-cleaning agent until it was identified as a carcinogen (though I still suspect the +ve was due to carcinogenic stabilisers being added to the industrial grade trike).

We are playing long-term catch-up with identifying hazardous substances, and any heads-up such as "avoid reactive aromatic hydrocarbons" is worth having, I reckon.

Col
 

glueman

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trichloroethylene 111 another nasty solvent I carried in my car and we sold a lot off it was one of the main ingredients of the primer for our glazing system
 

Cap'n Fishy

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trichloroethylene 111 another nasty solvent I carried in my car and we sold a lot off it was one of the main ingredients of the primer for our glazing system

That's the one I was referring to above. We used to use it as our +ve control when doing a vapour-phase Ames Test. We got involved in a big back-testing programme for a well-known (at the time) chemical company, who were heavily into dry-cleaning solvents. One day, they gave us pure 1,1,1, Trichloroethylene to test. So, our test compound was 1,1,1, Trichloroethylene, and our +ve control was 1,1,1, Trichloroethylene. Well, the +ve control was +ve, and the test compound was -ve. A WTF moment! When we investigated, we found our +ve control was only +ve because of highly mutagenic stabilisers. My memory is struggling to remember, but may have been epoxides, such as cyclohexene oxide? (All epoxides of simple hydrocarbons are incredibly mutagenic.) Pure 1,1,1, Trichloroethylene was indeed not mutagenic.

When we heard that 1,1,1, Trichloroethylene had been identified as a liver carcinogen, and had been banned from use in dry cleaning fluids, we always reckoned it had been damned due to the mutagenic stabilisers. But who knows? Dichloromethane is highly mutagenic...

Col
 

easker1

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wasn't trichlorethylene used in the production of Phosgene gas ? it was used in huge vats for degreasing turbine blades in the shipyard I served my apprentice ship at, i t was used in a plastic extrusion process but it caused the long term degrading of the product , when I worked as a storeman we had a lot of PVA sheeting known as Solvo Dams , one guy took some home for his garden with out knowing what it was , he thought it was PVC, he used it in his garden to cover lettuces , couldn't understand where it went after a night of rain, easker1
 

kingf000

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wasn't trichlorethylene used in the production of Phosgene gas ? it was used in huge vats for degreasing turbine blades in the shipyard I served my apprentice ship at, i t was used in a plastic extrusion process but it caused the long term degrading of the product , when I worked as a storeman we had a lot of PVA sheeting known as Solvo Dams , one guy took some home for his garden with out knowing what it was , he thought it was PVC, he used it in his garden to cover lettuces , couldn't understand where it went after a night of rain, easker1
Isn't history wonderful. Have you been watching the programme on toxins in the Victorian home? They used to use arsenic in paints in the house and wondered why people were dying of arsenic poisoning! Then again, they also used arsenic as a beauty aid.

I still remember when the link between benzene and cancer was made around 1980. Before that, benzene had been in wide use as a solvent, then it was banned and everyone went into panic mode to find a safe alternative. Because of its structural similarity, toluene was rigorously safety tested and came out clean, hence its use as a benzene replacement. It must be one of the most safety tested compounds. However, it has fallen from grace recently, not because of any specific toxicity, but it was one of the favourite solvents for 'glue sniffers', and did cause damage with continuous high dose usage, similar to many things when abused, like alcohol.
 

kingf000

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wasn't trichlorethylene used in the production of Phosgene gas ? it was used in huge vats for degreasing turbine blades in the shipyard I served my apprentice ship at, i t was used in a plastic extrusion process but it caused the long term degrading of the product , when I worked as a storeman we had a lot of PVA sheeting known as Solvo Dams , one guy took some home for his garden with out knowing what it was , he thought it was PVC, he used it in his garden to cover lettuces , couldn't understand where it went after a night of rain, easker1
Isn't history wonderful. Have you been watching the programme on toxins in the Victorian home? They used to use arsenic in paints in the house and wondered why people were dying of arsenic poisoning! Then again, they also used arsenic as a beauty aid.

I still remember when the link between benzene and cancer was made around 1980. Before that, benzene had been in wide use as a solvent, then it was banned and everyone went into panic mode to find a safe alternative. Because of its structural similarity, toluene was rigorously safety tested and came out clean, hence its use as a benzene replacement. It must be one of the most safety tested compounds. However, it has fallen from grace recently, not because of any specific toxicity, but it was one of the favourite solvents for 'glue sniffers', and did cause damage with continuous high dose usage, similar to many things when abused, like alcohol.
 
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