Starting the cast

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GEK79

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Most lines used to have little bumps in the line, they looked like a line fault but they were there to let you know the optimum line needed to cast and you could feel them them between the fingers when pulling the line back.
If your line doesn't have them and not many do lately, you can mark the line with a marker pen so you notice it in your peripheral vision when you find the amount of line that you need to cast.
Eventually you do it by the feel of the cast.

You can get some line by roll casting or by waving the rod in the air (false casting) I'm not a fan of waving the line in the water to get more out as it scares the fish, in my opinion.

heres a video on starting to cast
Many thanks Paul very helpful will watch the rest of that video.. I will at some stage invest in a few casting lessons just I have to go to Galway which is about 4 hours away.. Thanks again..
 

ohanzee

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So why not end my confusion by answering my question?

Because I was working?

Its an interesting question, in a flat field an overhead cast will always win out, but in water I can manage 75' with a jump spey, bit further if everything was just right, in the same situation I'm hard pushed to do much different with an overhead cast, so for me, and I can cast a lot further on grass, there is no difference.
 

Tangled

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Because I was working?

I wasn't replying to you, but you'll do ;-)

Its an interesting question, in a flat field an overhead cast will always win out, but in water I can manage 75' with a jump spey,

We're not talking about spey casting on a river or overhead casting on grass. Our man is talking about roll casting at the end of a retrieve on a lake. There's no way on earth a simple roll cast can beat an overhead cast in that situation even without double hauling.

So far as spey casting goes, I've never measured it, but I know can cast a lot further overhead. Not that I try very often, only when I really have to get a long way. But I make no claims to be any kind of caster of either method.
 

ohanzee

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We're not talking about spey casting on a river or overhead casting on grass. Our man is talking about roll casting at the end of a retrieve on a lake. There's no way on earth a simple roll cast can beat an overhead cast in that situation even without double hauling.

At the end of a retrieve, with under 30' of line out..is the context, rolling out or lifting into an overhead cast is much of a muchness, what matters is which he feels more comfortable with while feeding line out.

The spey cast thing was just in answer to you, few can cast off water as well as they overhead cast, but there is little difference if done well because very few of us have a clear flat 60 feet behind to make a long overhead cast...we only need 20' or so of water behind to form a big enough D loop for 70' or more.
 
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Tangled

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At the end of a retrieve, with under 30' of line out..is the context, rolling out or lifting into an overhead cast is much of a muchness, what matters is which he feels more comfortable with while feeding line out.

That's irrelevant to the point you originally objected to. You can't bring yourself to say it, but quite obviously an overhead cast will always out distance a roll cast. No need for any further confusion.

To get back to my original point of fishing on a lake that you objected to, if you use a roll cast with 30' of line out, you are not fishing sensibly. Not only can you not cast as far, you're removing the fly from the water at least 20' too early. You're covering a fraction of the water.
 

ohanzee

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That's irrelevant to the point you originally objected to. You can't bring yourself to say it, but quite obviously an overhead cast will always out distance a roll cast. No need for any further confusion.

Nope, just to state the obvious, a roll cast is always going to beat an overhead cast with a blocked back cast.
And my point was that a cast off the water..can.. go as far, if you can do it well.
 

ohanzee

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To get back to my original point of fishing on a lake that you objected to, if you use a roll cast with 30' of line out, you are not fishing sensibly. Not only can you not cast as far, you're removing the fly from the water at least 20' too early. You're covering a fraction of the water.

Its the same for an overhead cast.
 

Tangled

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Nope, just to state the obvious, a roll cast is always going to beat an overhead cast with a blocked back cast.

Oh, gosh, you mean if you can't actually do an overhead cast, a roll cast will go further? Sheesh, who knew?

Ok, I'm done.
 

ohanzee

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Oh, gosh, you mean if you can't actually do an overhead cast, a roll cast will go further? Sheesh, who knew?

Ok, I'm done.

Put simply, the potential distance for a jump roll is no different from an overhead cast, you lift the same weight of line and shoot the same, they are effectively the same thing with a different 'back cast'.
 

taffy1

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Well within my comfort zone
A stillwater, plenty of open features so, casting into the wind, across the wind, either over left or right shoulder, or maybe straight down the wind? Casts have been adapted, what's the best in which situation?
 
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GEK79

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What we all need is for Tangled to provide us with an 'Understanding Casting' thread. (y)
I'll try the overhead as I received a lot of advice and my roll casting is okay gladly I've no reel need for 75yard casts most of my fishing is done in the margins..
 

Jeltz

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It is commonly advised to roll cast out to get a straight nicely tensioned line with no slack to then lift into an overhead cast, I personally don't bother but if you strip off 30' or so onto the ground, then just wiggle the rod tip, the line on the ground will wiggle through the rings into water at the rod tip, if you then just raise the rod tip into a roll cast...
Personally I just pull off 30' or so and zip it straight into a false cast then out initially, when fishing with wet flies though you will often have times when you bring the flies right in and need to roll cast to get the line out enough to make an over head cast.
If you are fishing a big lake I presume, do not try this technique when fishing a small stream under a canopy of trees.
 

andygrey

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The rod is loaded by the line in the 'D' loop and friction from the line still on the water - the water anchor.
There was a very long thread a few years ago about this... James (caster extraordinaire and brain-the-size-of-a-planet) proved pretty conclusively that the rod is NOT loaded due to water friction in a roll-cast. I seem to remember that there were some nice videos of him tying the end of the line to his trainers and roll-casting on a slippery tiled floor.
What water friction (stiction?) does do for you is allow a dynamic D-Loop to be formed.
 

Tangled

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There was a very long thread a few years ago about this... James (caster extraordinaire and brain-the-size-of-a-planet) proved pretty conclusively that the rod is NOT loaded due to water friction in a roll-cast. I seem to remember that there were some nice videos of him tying the end of the line to his trainers and roll-casting on a slippery tiled floor.
That would be interesting, can you find it?
What water friction (stiction?) does do for you is allow a dynamic D-Loop to be formed.
It seem obvious that it's the force applied by the rod to the weight of the line that loads the rod, but there must also be some effort required to remove the line from the water but in comparison it must be small.

Being able to roll cast off grass tells you that it's not just a function of the water - surface tension etc. And the whole water anchor thing seems increasingly questionable to me. It seems more likely that the D loop formation is just in the right position when the line is where it is on the water.

Being a bit of a beginner at spey casting my timing is often off so I know I can sometimes accidentally cast quite well with an 'air anchor'. But other times not and my teacher blames it on a 'blown anchor.' Still puzzling this sh1t out.
 

andygrey

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That would be interesting, can you find it?

It seem obvious that it's the force applied by the rod to the weight of the line that loads the rod, but there must also be some effort required to remove the line from the water but in comparison it must be small.

Being able to roll cast off grass tells you that it's not just a function of the water - surface tension etc. And the whole water anchor thing seems increasingly questionable to me. It seems more likely that the D loop formation is just in the right position when the line is where it is on the water.

Being a bit of a beginner at spey casting my timing is often off so I know I can sometimes accidentally cast quite well with an 'air anchor'. But other times not and my teacher blames it on a 'blown anchor.' Still puzzling this sh1t out.
Here you go... it's quite a long one!

 

morayfisher

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There’s another discussion on this on the American salmon fishing forum.


I have definitely seen a slow motion video which sounds like the one in the post above but this one may be another. Unfortunately both are now on Vimeo and are password protected. Haven’t searched YouTube yet.
 

andygrey

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There’s another discussion on this on the American salmon fishing forum.


I have definitely seen a slow motion video which sounds like the one in the post above but this one may be another. Unfortunately both are now on Vimeo and are password protected. Haven’t searched YouTube yet.
I think you have to make the distinction between 'help load the rod' and 'load the rod'!
The anchor is essential to jumps and Speys so therefore 'helps load the rod'... otherwise you wouldn't be able to make the cast. However the point of the thread I posted was that the anchor doesn't actually pull against the rod (therefore 'loading' it) and doesn't offer any resistance until right at the end of the cast, which is a negligible amount. The majority of the rod loading comes from the mass of the fly line and not the friction of the anchor, but without the anchor stopping the reward moment of the fly line and creating the D-Loop you would have an inverted overhead cast.
Basically the answer is both yes and no!
 

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