Sunray lines

ohanzee

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Yes that's the one, apparently glass is required for its density and beaded to give buoyancy.

I don't think the major companies will have left much room for improvement in regards to making the line thinner without trading of buoyancy.
Looking over some of the older threads he clearly had people fooled for a while 🤪

Al
Its a cool experiment to see if they can be thinner and still float, and it looks like he achieved that to a degree, but his claims are a bit beyond the reality and the topless rants are a bit..er...not what we have come to expect from Cortland and the like :whistle:
 

karlsson

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Its a cool experiment to see if they can be thinner and still float, and it looks like he achieved that to a degree, but his claims are a bit beyond the reality and the topless rants are a bit..er...not what we have come to expect from Cortland and the like :whistle:
He really hasn't achieved it, check the old debate where James Evans measured one of his lines...
Think the piece of "floating" runningline is still lying at the bottom and hasn't magically floated to the top ;-)

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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He really hasn't achieved it, check the old debate where James Evans measured one of his lines...
Think the piece of "floating" runningline is still lying at the bottom and hasn't magically floated to the top ;-)

Cheers
Lasse
There have been a couple on here tried the lines with reasonable reviews.
 

James9118

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There have been a couple on here tried the lines with reasonable reviews.
I wasn't interested in a subjective assessment of the line (hence why I didn't bother casting it) I was purely interested in how it stacked up against the marketing claims. As such I took it into a lab and performed a series of measurements.

The results are all in the other thread. If you believe what the clown is telling you then you're either on the same drugs as him or very gullible. Which is it Alan?
 

ohanzee

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I wasn't interested in a subjective assessment of the line (hence why I didn't bother casting it) I was purely interested in how it stacked up against the marketing claims. As such I took it into a lab and performed a series of measurements.

The results are all in the other thread. If you believe what the clown is telling you then you're either on the same drugs as him or very gullible. Which is it Alan?
Neither as it happens, just pointing out that despite his obvious shortcomings and that there is nothing special going on, those that have tried them have not been altogether damning, not enough to save him though I imagine.
 

Maruta

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That's exactly what I did!
I purchased one earlier as they were on offer for £20. So I thought I'd give it a go and got a 9wght sink tip for pike fishing. It's all ready to go but the current situation means I can't give it a whirl.
 

karlsson

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There have been a couple on here tried the lines with reasonable reviews.
Did I state otherwise?
He claims thinner than anything else and floating, they aren't. What they are is pretty ok wannabe shootinghead lines, short heavy head, and those are notoriesly praised for easy distance, quick "loading" etc. But of course, stating what the line really is, doesnt sell lines, does it 😉

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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Did I state otherwise?
He claims thinner than anything else and floating, they aren't. What they are is pretty ok wannabe shootinghead lines, short heavy head, and those are notoriesly praised for easy distance, quick "loading" etc. But of course, stating what the line really is, doesnt sell lines, does it 😉

Cheers
Lasse
I'm not so sure topless rants and video's of playing for time sell lines either.
 

catzrob

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141
I'm pretty sure he has his lines manufactured on the same machinery as several other manufacturers - someone like Northern Sport. I think I remember finding an interview with the Sunray guy talking about working with these OEM manufacturers, though can't be arsed to look it up now.

If he can order it from an OEM/white label line maker, the big brands definitely can as well!

All he's doing is making different performance compromises (thinner but less floaty) and probably subtracting two from every line weight (so eg a 7wt is sold as a 5wt, 3wt sold as 1wt etc). If that's a design compromise that a particular person prefers then it's sensible to buy it! But it's not a revolutionary product.

There also seem to be some pretty bad quality control issues, some of which are solved quickly with a refund/replacement and others which just result in a rant from Mr Sunray and an out of pocket angler, depending on the mood the guy is in when he hears of the issue.

EDIT: Found the interview https://sunrayflyfish.com/blogs/reviews/interview-with-tom-bell-founder-of-sunray
 
Last edited:

ohanzee

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That makes surprisingly interesting reading.

The heart of the debate.....🧐

''before I even started learning about polymer chemistry and basic physics, the industry had left 15% diameter gains on the table for me, which I saw and jumped on. For 40 years fly lines have used high percentages of microspheres to make fly lines buoyant.

So the answer to 'how you do reduce the diameter of a fly line and still make it float? It's impossible.' is 'by not using high percentages of high particle size microspheres.'

Or the short answer is. 'They were already thicker than they needed to be to float! The market just didn't know it. We've been casting fly lines that have been thicker than they needed to be for 40 years.'

The irony is that when I made them thinner, people accused my innovation of being marketing hype, when it was 40 years of hype that allowed me to make an honest 30% improvement!''.

I like the bit about silk lines, heavier than water but float.
 

stevie d

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That's exactly what I did!
I had a chance to use mine recently and it was OK, the floaty part floated and the sink tip sank😁. Used it on a 9ft 10# rod and once I got used to it I found it to be OK. Felt a lot lighter than my usual Airflo Sniper but it is rated a 9# and I suspect that my Airflo 10# lines are way over the AFFTA standards for their stated weights. Happy enough with it for £20 and will see how it goes with more usage.
 

tenet

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Interestingly on his video feed that randomly pops up on my FB page he briefly mentions that All his lines have Spey type tapers. Barrio do their SLX with Spey tapers and are well regarded. I think they and Sunray come out of the same Northern Sports factory in Redditch (?)
 

James9118

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Alan, I don't know if it's just how I read your posts, but it seems to me that you really want to believe the Sunray BS. The guy is about as credible as David Icke when it comes to physics, it doesn't matter where his sales pitch is printed or shared - it's still b****cks.

Let me, once again, go through why things float and why things sink. Firstly I'll start with the case of a steel pin. I think we’ve all seen the demo of a pin (steel density of ~ 8/gcc) floating on water. We all know that what’s happening here is that the surface tension is supporting the weight of the pin, however once this is broken (by a ripple or wave) the pin will sink, never again to return to the surface. Steel is naturally hydrophobic, and it is this property that allows the pin to be suspended by the surface film of the water. Hydrophobicity can be assessed easily in a lab by measuring the contact angle of a droplet of pure water.

The important message though is that hydrophobicity helps suspend material in the surface film – it does nothing to change buoyancy. Buoyancy is a true measure of whether something floats or not. Everything, including the pin, has some buoyancy when submerged in water; this produces an up-thrust force. In the case of the pin, this up-thrust is not sufficient to counteract gravity and thus it sinks. With other materials the up-thrust is larger than the pull due to gravity (F = mg) and the item floats. This is in essence what Archimedes discovered more than 2000 years ago (and no, the cokey-clown has not re-written the laws of physics).

In the marketing BS the clown often states his lines have a ‘super-hydrophobic’ coating. If you remember back to my lab tests where I took a Sunray line in to work for inspection, I’m not sure I wrote about the microscopic examination mainly because it was unremarkable. By that I mean the line had the exact same extrusion marked surface as any other PVC fly line, and the water droplet contact angle was also typical. Note:- typical, not super, not world beating, not astonishing, not patentable – but typical, bog-standard etc.

I’ll then remind you of Archimedes principal, you know – the one that’s stood for millennia explaining why things possess buoyancy. In simple terms if the density of something is greater than 1g/cc then it’s going to sink in water. Less than 1g/cc then it’s going to float (if you want to read a bit more about this, and see a method for measuring the density of your own lines, then I wrote this article for Sexyloops some time back https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/i-am-being-dense). Now most floating fly line manufacturers make their lines around the 0.85g/cc, so there is a ‘window’ of 0.15g/cc where some gains can be made from increasing the density – but certainly not a 30% reduction in diameter, this (for the same weight) would have you straight into sinking line territory. In fact as lines get above ~0.9g/cc people start complaining about issues such as sinking tips etc.

Just to reiterate the previous thread. When I measured the diameter of the Sunray line I had it was actually fatter than a standard #5 line I compared it against. To repeat that (because I’m not sure any of the previous thread has sank in) it was fatter! This is because it was way over the AFFTA weight that was stated on the box, i.e. it was supposed to be a #5 but it weighed in as a #7. Because Archimedes’ principal still holds then the density limit of 1.0g/cc means it has to be fatter.
If you want to check the theoretical line diameter for any AFFTA number, then use the following formula:

Diameter = 2 x sqrt (AFFTA weight in grams/(density {i.e. 0.85} * pi * 914.4)

Also, if you remember the running line was measured to have a density of >1.0g/cc – this is the part of the line that is sat at the bottom of a glass beaker in my work, and there it will stay unless a miracle happens.

The question about silk lines is the only new and interesting part of this thread. Silk lines are dense, yet they float. They do not float because they are hydrophobic though (like how the pin floats temporarily) – that’s important. They float because they trap bubbles of air along their length. If you look at a silk line under a microscope you’ll find it’s very textured, with tiny loops and protrusions of individual silk fibres (what you see as a silk thread is made up of thousands of silk fibres). This texture traps air and thus imparts buoyancy.

So I’m sure you’re going to suggest that Sunray have manufactured this texture into their plastic fly lines. Well I’d refer you to my observations above – the Sunray lines have the exact same extrusion marks as any other lines. There’s no attempt to impart any texture post extrusion so there’s nothing unique about their surface. I’d also guess that trying to get an air-trapping texture in PVC would result in a very rough feeling fly-line that would strip its coating in no time at all.

I’m done with these conversations now, if you want to believe in the BS then fill your boots. Alternatively buy a line and do some actual measurements rather than theorising about them.

James.
 

Lewis Chessman

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I’m done with these conversations now, if you want to believe in the BS then fill your boots. Alternatively buy a line and do some actual measurements rather than theorising about them.
James, I can understand your getting fed up with reiterating yourself but I just wanted to say thanks for such an interesting, clearly written post. It was much appreciated by a layman (me), one who hadn't seen your previous posts on the matter. Don't resent the time it took, it is appreciated. Cheers.
 

Fredmoore

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James, I can understand your getting fed up with reiterating yourself but I just wanted to say thanks for such an interesting, clearly written post. It was much appreciated by a layman (me), one who hadn't seen your previous posts on the matter. Don't resent the time it took, it is appreciated. Cheers.
Wouldn’t have thought it was appreciated by Tom bell,lol:LOL:
 

running bear

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North County Dublin, but always a South Down man
Alan, I don't know if it's just how I read your posts, but it seems to me that you really want to believe the Sunray BS. The guy is about as credible as David Icke when it comes to physics, it doesn't matter where his sales pitch is printed or shared - it's still b****cks.

Let me, once again, go through why things float and why things sink. Firstly I'll start with the case of a steel pin. I think we’ve all seen the demo of a pin (steel density of ~ 8/gcc) floating on water. We all know that what’s happening here is that the surface tension is supporting the weight of the pin, however once this is broken (by a ripple or wave) the pin will sink, never again to return to the surface. Steel is naturally hydrophobic, and it is this property that allows the pin to be suspended by the surface film of the water. Hydrophobicity can be assessed easily in a lab by measuring the contact angle of a droplet of pure water.

The important message though is that hydrophobicity helps suspend material in the surface film – it does nothing to change buoyancy. Buoyancy is a true measure of whether something floats or not. Everything, including the pin, has some buoyancy when submerged in water; this produces an up-thrust force. In the case of the pin, this up-thrust is not sufficient to counteract gravity and thus it sinks. With other materials the up-thrust is larger than the pull due to gravity (F = mg) and the item floats. This is in essence what Archimedes discovered more than 2000 years ago (and no, the cokey-clown has not re-written the laws of physics).

In the marketing BS the clown often states his lines have a ‘super-hydrophobic’ coating. If you remember back to my lab tests where I took a Sunray line in to work for inspection, I’m not sure I wrote about the microscopic examination mainly because it was unremarkable. By that I mean the line had the exact same extrusion marked surface as any other PVC fly line, and the water droplet contact angle was also typical. Note:- typical, not super, not world beating, not astonishing, not patentable – but typical, bog-standard etc.

I’ll then remind you of Archimedes principal, you know – the one that’s stood for millennia explaining why things possess buoyancy. In simple terms if the density of something is greater than 1g/cc then it’s going to sink in water. Less than 1g/cc then it’s going to float (if you want to read a bit more about this, and see a method for measuring the density of your own lines, then I wrote this article for Sexyloops some time back https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/i-am-being-dense). Now most floating fly line manufacturers make their lines around the 0.85g/cc, so there is a ‘window’ of 0.15g/cc where some gains can be made from increasing the density – but certainly not a 30% reduction in diameter, this (for the same weight) would have you straight into sinking line territory. In fact as lines get above ~0.9g/cc people start complaining about issues such as sinking tips etc.

Just to reiterate the previous thread. When I measured the diameter of the Sunray line I had it was actually fatter than a standard #5 line I compared it against. To repeat that (because I’m not sure any of the previous thread has sank in) it was fatter! This is because it was way over the AFFTA weight that was stated on the box, i.e. it was supposed to be a #5 but it weighed in as a #7. Because Archimedes’ principal still holds then the density limit of 1.0g/cc means it has to be fatter.
If you want to check the theoretical line diameter for any AFFTA number, then use the following formula:

Diameter = 2 x sqrt (AFFTA weight in grams/(density {i.e. 0.85} * pi * 914.4)

Also, if you remember the running line was measured to have a density of >1.0g/cc – this is the part of the line that is sat at the bottom of a glass beaker in my work, and there it will stay unless a miracle happens.

The question about silk lines is the only new and interesting part of this thread. Silk lines are dense, yet they float. They do not float because they are hydrophobic though (like how the pin floats temporarily) – that’s important. They float because they trap bubbles of air along their length. If you look at a silk line under a microscope you’ll find it’s very textured, with tiny loops and protrusions of individual silk fibres (what you see as a silk thread is made up of thousands of silk fibres). This texture traps air and thus imparts buoyancy.

So I’m sure you’re going to suggest that Sunray have manufactured this texture into their plastic fly lines. Well I’d refer you to my observations above – the Sunray lines have the exact same extrusion marks as any other lines. There’s no attempt to impart any texture post extrusion so there’s nothing unique about their surface. I’d also guess that trying to get an air-trapping texture in PVC would result in a very rough feeling fly-line that would strip its coating in no time at all.

I’m done with these conversations now, if you want to believe in the BS then fill your boots. Alternatively buy a line and do some actual measurements rather than theorising about them.

James.
You lost me at David Icke...he saved fupp all at Coventry, so how is he going to save the (flyfishing) world.
Seriously, good post, full agreement, too many people claiming the science backs their products, yet can’t give data. Your data shows their claims are bogus...clearly a hater or Cortland employee and we should ban twitter as a result. POTUS People Ought To Use Sunray.
 

ohanzee

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Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
35,976
Alan, I don't know if it's just how I read your posts, but it seems to me that you really want to believe the Sunray BS. The guy is about as credible as David Icke when it comes to physics, it doesn't matter where his sales pitch is printed or shared - it's still b****cks.

Let me, once again, go through why things float and why things sink. Firstly I'll start with the case of a steel pin. I think we’ve all seen the demo of a pin (steel density of ~ 8/gcc) floating on water. We all know that what’s happening here is that the surface tension is supporting the weight of the pin, however once this is broken (by a ripple or wave) the pin will sink, never again to return to the surface. Steel is naturally hydrophobic, and it is this property that allows the pin to be suspended by the surface film of the water. Hydrophobicity can be assessed easily in a lab by measuring the contact angle of a droplet of pure water.

The important message though is that hydrophobicity helps suspend material in the surface film – it does nothing to change buoyancy. Buoyancy is a true measure of whether something floats or not. Everything, including the pin, has some buoyancy when submerged in water; this produces an up-thrust force. In the case of the pin, this up-thrust is not sufficient to counteract gravity and thus it sinks. With other materials the up-thrust is larger than the pull due to gravity (F = mg) and the item floats. This is in essence what Archimedes discovered more than 2000 years ago (and no, the cokey-clown has not re-written the laws of physics).

In the marketing BS the clown often states his lines have a ‘super-hydrophobic’ coating. If you remember back to my lab tests where I took a Sunray line in to work for inspection, I’m not sure I wrote about the microscopic examination mainly because it was unremarkable. By that I mean the line had the exact same extrusion marked surface as any other PVC fly line, and the water droplet contact angle was also typical. Note:- typical, not super, not world beating, not astonishing, not patentable – but typical, bog-standard etc.

I’ll then remind you of Archimedes principal, you know – the one that’s stood for millennia explaining why things possess buoyancy. In simple terms if the density of something is greater than 1g/cc then it’s going to sink in water. Less than 1g/cc then it’s going to float (if you want to read a bit more about this, and see a method for measuring the density of your own lines, then I wrote this article for Sexyloops some time back https://www.sexyloops.com/index.php/ps/i-am-being-dense). Now most floating fly line manufacturers make their lines around the 0.85g/cc, so there is a ‘window’ of 0.15g/cc where some gains can be made from increasing the density – but certainly not a 30% reduction in diameter, this (for the same weight) would have you straight into sinking line territory. In fact as lines get above ~0.9g/cc people start complaining about issues such as sinking tips etc.

Just to reiterate the previous thread. When I measured the diameter of the Sunray line I had it was actually fatter than a standard #5 line I compared it against. To repeat that (because I’m not sure any of the previous thread has sank in) it was fatter! This is because it was way over the AFFTA weight that was stated on the box, i.e. it was supposed to be a #5 but it weighed in as a #7. Because Archimedes’ principal still holds then the density limit of 1.0g/cc means it has to be fatter.
If you want to check the theoretical line diameter for any AFFTA number, then use the following formula:

Diameter = 2 x sqrt (AFFTA weight in grams/(density {i.e. 0.85} * pi * 914.4)

Also, if you remember the running line was measured to have a density of >1.0g/cc – this is the part of the line that is sat at the bottom of a glass beaker in my work, and there it will stay unless a miracle happens.

The question about silk lines is the only new and interesting part of this thread. Silk lines are dense, yet they float. They do not float because they are hydrophobic though (like how the pin floats temporarily) – that’s important. They float because they trap bubbles of air along their length. If you look at a silk line under a microscope you’ll find it’s very textured, with tiny loops and protrusions of individual silk fibres (what you see as a silk thread is made up of thousands of silk fibres). This texture traps air and thus imparts buoyancy.

So I’m sure you’re going to suggest that Sunray have manufactured this texture into their plastic fly lines. Well I’d refer you to my observations above – the Sunray lines have the exact same extrusion marks as any other lines. There’s no attempt to impart any texture post extrusion so there’s nothing unique about their surface. I’d also guess that trying to get an air-trapping texture in PVC would result in a very rough feeling fly-line that would strip its coating in no time at all.

I’m done with these conversations now, if you want to believe in the BS then fill your boots. Alternatively buy a line and do some actual measurements rather than theorising about them.

James.
Sorry I missed this earlier, I posted the bit that I thought was 'the nub of it' for the thread, I wasn't agreeing with it, I did like the bit about the silk line, that was actually all I posted.
 

JayP

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Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
2,957
Location
St Neots, Cambs
Wouldn’t have thought it was appreciated by Tom bell,lol:LOL:
Tom would like to apologise to all Croston, Leyland residents for the class A "drought" up there. It appears he has necked it all.
What an absolute Bell. 🤣
Tom would like to apologise to all Croston, Leyland residents for the class A "drought" up there. It appears he has necked it all.
What an absolute Bell. 🤣
Known locally as the 'Hoover'
 

FluffChuck

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
4
I bought a sink tip line from Sunray after believing the hype..

Honest thoughts? It’s... okay...

..but I have a Maxcatch sink tip (admittedly in a different weight) that feels better for a 1/4 of the price...

Simple economics unfortunately for Sunray, I’d like to support a British small business. But at £40-50 a line for what is no better than the Maxcatch offerings for £10.. it’s hard to justify.

Fluff
 

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