Tidy casting

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The rod tip is moved in continuous motion as it is circled up behind and pulled both forward and into plane, the rod tip keeps moving if slowly at one point in an elliptical motion. When the line overtakes the rod tip then it is a pause technically in casting terms even if the rod tip keeps moving in continuous motion, the rod tip however does not pause. You could both be right.


well put..i think..you should be a kidnapp negotiator:D
 

RPS

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I didn't want to measure it, just have a reference point so that we could all look for the pause.

Even though I have just seen that a similar thread is running beside this one, I would appreciate a simple reference point on the said video in order that I may look for the pause. You did state that you considered it obvious and even had no problems viewing it with your better than 20/20 vision.

Darren, Somehow, you seem to have missed the number, just a number, that is all I ask. Then we will all be able to study the "pause" you state is on that video.
 

guest21

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Watched this a few times.Now I may be missing it but I cannot see a pause.
Zoomer why don't you ask Andrew if he is at the Casting Club this week.

Brian
 

charlieH

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Watched this a few times.Now I may be missing it but I cannot see a pause.

It appears that Darren refers to a pause even though the rod is still being moved. In post 18 he writes "This is the 'pause' as during this phase of the cast he is is moving the rod tip around from the backward sweep finish position into the start position for the forward stroke", and in the other concurrent thread he agrees with WG that during the pause the caster may be drifting the rod (i.e. moving it up and back).

I confess it seems to me somewhat odd to call this a pause, since the word implies a lack of movement, which is clearly not the case here. We can probably all agree that there is a slowing down at the transition between lift and sweep, and again between sweep and delivery, but not a stop. So perhaps all this confusion arises from the way Darren uses the English language, not a disagreement on the mechanics of casting.
 

RPS

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Watched this a few times.Now I may be missing it but I cannot see a pause.
Zoomer why don't you ask Andrew if he is at the Casting Club this week.

Brian

I just wonder whether it is worth bothering with. The stumbling block to discussion on this thread is finding the pause. Apparently, no person can both see a pause on the video and then note down the timer position in order that we can all examine it. The inability or refusal to supply such a simple peice of information has become the issue, with natural conclusions resulting, again.
 

Alan Maughan

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A pause is exactly that. A moment in time when the rod tip is doing nothing, the casting arc remains constant and the rod is under very little if any load, it isnt a drift backwards and it isnt a cricling up.

It is clear that Andy doesnt pause anywhere, he circles up then makes his forward cast. The time taken to circle up allows the line to form the d-loop and the anchor to touch down while also introducing an element of pre-load into the rod and additonal tension into the line.

Circling up may be wrongly interperated as a pause. A pause can be anything from a nanosecond to an hour but surely in the context of a spey cast the pause must be clearly noticable and last for at least long enough to see it. To give those who are unsure how long I would consider a proper pause it would be long enough to say me name in real time.
 
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minitube

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A pause is exactly that. A moment in time when the rod tip is doing nothing, the casting arc remains constant and the rod is under very little if any load, it isnt a drift backwards and it isnt a cricling up.

It is clear that Andy doesnt pause anywhere, he circles up then makes his forward cast. The time taken to circle up allows the line to form the d-loop and the anchor to touch down while also introducing an element of pre-load into the rod and additonal tension into the line.

Circling up may be wrongly interperated as a pause. A pause can be anything from a nanosecond to an hour but surely in the context of a spey cast the pause must be clearly noticable and last for at least long enough to see it. To give those who are unsure how long I would consider a proper pause it would be long enough to say me name in real time.



Some people qualify a fly-casting pause differently. It can be considered, and is by some that a pause is in effect if the line is unrolling and passing the rod tip, the rod can be repositioned in a relaxed fashion as the line unrolls. The rod does not necessarily have to be kept stationary during a pause space. That is a stop and wait which is also one correct definition of a pause but there are options.
 
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charlieH

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A pause is exactly that. A moment in time when the rod tip is doing nothing

Common sense (and conventional English usage) would agree with you, though to be strictly accurate I would suggest that a pause indicates that not only the rod tip but the entire rod and indeed the caster's hands and arms are static - in fact, that the caster is doing nothing for that moment. It seems, however, that Darren doesn't share this definition. As well as the instances I quoted above, see also this exchange on the 'Initial lift' thread:

Certainly the movement of the rod will slow at the end of the upstream sweep, as the rod is raised and brought slightly behind in preparation for the final forward movement, but that is very different from a pause, which I will avoid at all costs.

Then the only difference is wording. What you're referring to as repostioning is the period I was referring to as a pause, either way it's a period of time between the end of the sweep, and the beginning of the forward stroke.

This confirms to me that Darren intends to convey quite a different meaning in his use of the word pause from the rest of us. Personally, I'd have thought it would be rather confusing for a pupil to be told to pause when in fact the instructor means him still to be moving the rod.
 

Darren Lewis

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Thank you for helping to clarify what I'm obviously struggling to do.

As I've explained, it's a period between the two main elements of the spey cast, the backwards sweep, and the forward cast, when you're not actively moving the main body of the line, but you are moving the rod, as Alan calls it circling up. I personally would call that a pause between the main casting strokes whilst you re-position the rod and allow the D loop to form, either way it's a period of time when you're not pulling the line back into the D, or pulling it forward for the forward cast. People have obviously got too fixated on my use of the word 'pause', I obviously should have taken the time to explain more fully in the beginning rather than abbreviating this period as a 'pause'. It's obviously not a good way to explain it in words, but I have to say when I'm spey casting, I certainly think of it as a pause to stop myself creeping and rushing the forward stroke.

By the way I wouldn't tell a beginner to pause at the end of the sweep, I'd tell him to reposition himself into the roll cast position ready to deliver the forward stroke.
 

Reg Wyatt

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Personally, I'd have thought it would be rather confusing for a pupil to be told to pause when in fact the instructor means him still to be moving the rod.

I would like think that anyone having a casting lesson would be too interested in watching, learning and copying the instructor rather than worry themselves about the definition of certain words. It's a casting lesson not an English language lesson.

If the instructor is any good - which I'm sure Darren is, then actions speak louder than any words - no matter how you define them.

Reg Wyatt
 
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RPS

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I would like think that anyone having a casting lesson would be too interested in watching, learning and copying the instructor rather than worry themselves about the definition of certain words. It's a casting lesson not an English language lesson.

If the instructor is any good - which I'm sure Darren is, then actions speak louder than any words - no matter how you define them.

Reg Wyatt

May as well give those kind of lessons in Urdo, at least from the start a pupil will know not to listen to a word he's being told.
 

charlieH

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I would like think that anyone having a casting lesson would be too interested in watching, learning and copying the instructor rather than worry themselves about the definition of certain words. It's a casting lesson not an English language lesson.

If the instructor is any good - which I'm sure Darren is, then actions speak louder than any words - no matter how you define them.

I agree that in the context of a one-to-one lesson it may matter rather less than in an internet discussion. Darren has subsequently said that he does in fact explain to his pupils what they should be doing in this so-called pause, so perhaps it is clear to them that it is not a pause in the conventional sense. But a casting lesson isn't entirely a dumb show, and words also play an essential part in getting points across - at least, that's been my experience in the casting lessons I have taken. And I'm sure you would agree that clarity of meaning is the essence of good communication, in whatever field of activity.
 

RPS

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Thank you for helping to clarify what I'm obviously struggling to do.

As I've explained, it's a period between the two main elements of the spey cast, the backwards sweep, and the forward cast, when you're not actively moving the main body of the line, but you are moving the rod, as Alan calls it circling up. I personally would call that a pause between the main casting strokes whilst you re-position the rod and allow the D loop to form, either way it's a period of time when you're not pulling the line back into the D, or pulling it forward for the forward cast. People have obviously got too fixated on my use of the word 'pause', I obviously should have taken the time to explain more fully in the beginning rather than abbreviating this period as a 'pause'. It's obviously not a good way to explain it in words, but I have to say when I'm spey casting, I certainly think of it as a pause to stop myself creeping and rushing the forward stroke.

By the way I wouldn't tell a beginner to pause at the end of the sweep, I'd tell him to reposition himself into the roll cast position ready to deliver the forward stroke.

Malcolm, I've already explained why a pause for a beginner is a good idea. With regards to a sinking line, then yes a pause is a bad idea as you allow it to sink again, but we weren't talking about casting a sinking line which is a specialised technique. To clarify, if you do a perfect lift into an efficient sweep then there is no need to pause, but for a beginner, as I have been talking about, then a short pause allows them to compose themselves ready for the sweep and more often than not has a beneficial effect on their casting. Personally, I can pause for tens of seconds at the end of the lift with a short/medium belly line and still perform a perfectly satisfactory spey cast.

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

John and Dubar, the pause at the end of the lift isn't an essential element as I've explained, but surely you're pausing at the end of the sweep? You have to allow time for the D loop to form, and the anchor to land, before you perform the forward cast?

If you look at the varied explanations behind the use of the word "pause" contained within these two related threads you will realise something quickly.

If only we could publish the contents of Private Messages. Aye Darren?;)
 

Alan Maughan

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Some people qualify a fly-casting pause differently. It can be considered, and is by some that a pause is in effect if the line is unrolling and passing the rod tip, the rod can be repositioned in a relaxed fashion as the line unrolls. The rod does not necessarily have to be kept stationary during a pause space. That is a stop and wait which is also one correct definition of a pause but there are options.

I see your point Robert, however if I wanted a client to reposition the rod in a relaxed fashion during this time I would call that drift and demonstrate it.

I accept that we dont share some of the same terminology/thinking and look forward to chewing the fat when I see you, Im sure we will both learn a thing or two :)
 

minitube

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I accept that we dont share some of the same terminology/thinking and look forward to chewing the fat when I see you, Im sure we will both learn a thing or two :)

I agree Alan, its always good to meet up and share information with other casters.
 
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Some people qualify a fly-casting pause differently. It can be considered, and is by some that a pause is in effect if the line is unrolling and passing the rod tip, the rod can be repositioned in a relaxed fashion as the line unrolls. The rod does not necessarily have to be kept stationary during a pause space. That is a stop and wait which is also one correct definition of a pause but there are options.


thanks for explaining this, im a beginner spey caster but i understand that if the speed of the rod tip ceaces to accelerate at any point the line must overtake, hence it could be considered a stop, the rest makes rather more sense now.
 

Darren Lewis

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If you look at the varied explanations behind the use of the word "pause" contained within these two related threads you will realise something quickly.

If only we could publish the contents of Private Messages. Aye Darren?;)

Yes, the main thing you'll learn very quickly is that you've taken two quotes that are completely unrelated and tried to compare them as justification to try and belittle me in public, one quote is referring to the pause in the lift, and one between the sweep and the forward stroke.

It's a real shame that my genuine attempts to help a forum member asking a casting question, and my attempts to explain difficult concepts as succinctly as possible, too succinctly as it turns out, have been has been turned around, and now even misquoted, as an excuse to attack me, the reasons for which baffle me, especially when other people have agreed with me and not been attacked for doing so. I sincerely hope this doesn't discourage other forum members from asking for advice in the future.
 
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RPS

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Yes, the main thing you'll learn very quickly is that you've taken two quotes that are completely unrelated and tried to compare them as justification to try and belittle me in public, one quote is referring to the pause in the lift, and one between the sweep and the forward stroke.

It's a real shame that my genuine attempts to help a forum member asking a casting question, and my attempts to explain difficult concepts as succinctly as possible, too succinctly as it turns out, have been has been turned around, and now even misquoted, as an excuse to attack me, the reasons for which baffle me, especially when other people have agreed with me and not been attacked for doing so. I sincerely hope this doesn't discourage other forum members from asking for advice in the future.

Within a few days you use the same word “pause” in terms of an actual pause or stop, also a pause that is not a pause or a stop, claim to see a pause but don’t substantiate it. In fact, you somehow manage to repeatedly avoid simply stating where the pause is. Of course the pause isn’t there, it doesn’t and didn’t exist. Instead of just admitting a mistake, or being succinct as you claim, you come out with various excuses and explanations but always managing to miss the other users confusion regarding your posts. Anyone who reads your posts on those two threads will see that you are not consistent on the subject of a “pause”, there is no need or wish to misrepresent.
 
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Darren Lewis

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Within a few days you use the same word “pause” in terms of an actual pause or stop, also a pause that is not a pause or a stop, claim to see a pause but don’t substantiate it. In fact, you somehow manage to repeatedly avoid simply stating where the pause is. Of course the pause isn’t there, it doesn’t and didn’t exist. Instead of just admitting a mistake, or being succinct as you claim, you come out with various excuses and explanations but always managing to miss the other users confusion regarding your posts. Anyone who reads your posts on those two threads will see that you are not consistent on the subject of a “pause”, there is no need or wish to misrepresent.

Oh, and your pretence at just wanting to be helpful. You weren’t trying to be helpful to anyone when you sent your PM’s to me, were you! Not a chance! Considering the content of your recent PM’s, which according to forum rules must remain private though if I had the permission of the other person concerned I may well publish them and let people know what sort of person we know you to be. I find myself in the position of treating your last post as a complete joke, but I have copied it on my hard drive as I have copied many others!

If you decide to continue to giving your advice, please ensure it is in English and uses words defined in the Oxford English dictionary.

I have clearly explained it many times, and people have posted that agree with me, the fact that you cannot see it isn't my fault. The description of a cast is entirely open to interpretation and people see things in different terms, why you cannot accept this and have turned this into a personal attack is beyond me, especially as you weren't even involved in the initial exchanges. I also have to disagree that I haven't stated where the pause is, I have, again repeatedly, pointed it out, to the second in it's accuracy, and I have not made a mistake.

With regards to PM's, my PM to you was intended to defuse an argument from starting in the first place, yet you chose to forward the content in it's entirity to another member without even replying. With regards to the content, I would respect the wishes of the member as he doesn't want it published, and hinting and threatening at publication will not be doing him any favours.

I've tried to offer an olive branch, I have apologised by PM, I have also provided opportunities for this continuing attack to cease, yet they haven't been taken, yet the orginal protaganist has taken them. The fact that you're copying my messages to the hard drive however can only suggest that you're preparing yourself for a prolonged and personal attack against me from the anonymity of a nickname, against somebody who's never met you or has ever done anything to attack you. As baffling as this behaviour is, for everyones sake, could this please be left where it is.
 
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guest21

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I Have come to the conclusion that to give any opinion on this forum,the casting threads in particular, nearly allways degenerates into an argument.
Surely the point of a forum is to have differant views/opinions where debate usually finds common ground.
I think we all should wait a few minutes and have a think before we reply to any topic.
I for one will be having second thoughts about replying to any thread. Not for fear of any adverse comments, only to maybe stop any arguments.

Brian
 
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