Two turn surgeons knot failing

chiron

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I am having problems with my 2 turn surgeon/water knots failing. I use a Hardy 6lb tapered leader and then a 18inch length of .014 Stroft then a 36 inch length of .01 Stroft.
The knot usually breaks leaving it on the up rod end if you follow me. I am careful to tie carefully and use plenty of spit to lubricate. All the nylon is fresh this year.
Is the problem just me or is it to do with the relative diameters of the twang?
Chiron
 

Wee Jimmy

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I am having problems with my 2 turn surgeon/water knots failing. I use a Hardy 6lb tapered leader and then a 18inch length of .014 Stroft then a 36 inch length of .01 Stroft.
The knot usually breaks leaving it on the up rod end if you follow me. I am careful to tie carefully and use plenty of spit to lubricate. All the nylon is fresh this year.
Is the problem just me or is it to do with the relative diameters of the twang?
Chiron

Couple suggestions for you to try...if you want to keep using the water knot I would add another turn.Better still try the figure eight knot...:thumbs: Make sure you pull your knots together dead slow and evenly.Forget the spit.
 
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morayfisher

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I'd change to the figure of eight knot.
You could always test them back to back with a pull test.

I also use a tippet ring on the end of the tapered leader, never need to shorten it again, just keep changing the tippet.
Only use good quality rings though. Never had a problem with Riverge.
 

anzac

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Couple suggestions for you to try...if you want to keep using the water knot I would another turn.Better still try the figure eight knot...:thumbs: Make sure you pull your knots together dead slow and evenly.Forget the spit.

I do three or four turns on a surgeons knot.
I haven't tried the figure of eight knot for fishing, but will have to give it a go. It was the first knot my granddad taught me.
 

chiron

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I was told by an eminent fishing guide that more than two turns weakens the sugeons knot.What I cannot understand is that when I was with him last year he tied on the tippet and the knot was perfect and didn’t give me any trouble. Is the answer more spit and slower tighten?
I do use tippet rings and get on ok with them but find them really fiddly.
Thanks for your suggestions. I will give the figure of eight a go.
Chiron
 

speytime

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I had used a uni/grinner for years hassle free, i tried the water knot and lost a fish fly and dropper the same week?
A grinner isn't the quickest to tie but it is reliable.
Al
 

BobP

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I'm one more for the Fig 8 knot. I like things to be simple, straightforward, easy to tie and easy to change and the Fig 8 ticks all those as well as being as reliable as any and a lot better than a fair few.

I'm not going to say I've been using it for Xty five years and never had a fail because that would be lying. All knots will fail at some time for a variety of reasons. All we can do is to minimise the number of failures.
 

chiron

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I use a grinner to to tie fly on and for tippet rings as Stroft pigtails with a blood knot.
Need to practice the figure of eight.The surgeons is quick and easy to tie in the half light and does not use to much nylon.
 

BobP

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I use a grinner to to tie fly on and for tippet rings as Stroft pigtails with a blood knot.
Need to practice the figure of eight.The surgeons is quick and easy to tie in the half light and does not use to much nylon.

Having used the 3 turn surgeon's aka 3 turn water knot for several years before switching to the Fig 8 I have to say that the latter is both quicker and easier to tie.

Form a loop with both strands same as surgeons. Stick your finger through the loop and twist once, then push your thumb through the loop to join the finger, pick up both strands of line and pull them through the loop. Tighten gently after moistening. Use the downward strand for droppers as usual. Should take less than 30 seconds start to finish.
 

arkle

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Whilst nt really being an advocate, for "plenty of spit" I do slightly "lube" my knots, but perhaps more importantly I was told many years ago by a very experienced angler to place the nearly completed knot under your tongue for a few seconds to warm the material up, so that it will soften a bit & pull up tighter.
 

Wee Jimmy

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Whilst nt really being an advocate, for "plenty of spit" I do slightly "lube" my knots, but perhaps more importantly I was told many years ago by a very experienced angler to place the nearly completed knot under your tongue for a few seconds to warm the material up, so that it will soften a bit & pull up tighter.

The key is really all about avoiding heat caused by friction,I don't bother with lube but do pull the knot together very slowly.
 

chiron

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Many thanks for suggestions and advice. Iam going to try figure of eight with lots of spit and a slow tighten.
However any thoughts on why my knot is failing. Could it be the relative diameters of the tippet material or just my poor tying.
 

JCP

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Hard to say Chiron without being there.Just sat here and tied a few water knots and they seem fine but not tied in the fine diameter quoted.Is it failing on dry test or on fish ?.Fig 8 is a great knot but putting joining/dropper knots in fine low stretch tippet materials is not something I would do by choice.Guessing you are using some pretty light gear ? and suited to your fishing although if your eminent friend does it then covers that query.Will be interested to know the outcome on this one because I find it hard to believe your tying is at fault as difficult to get a water knot wrong.

JP
 

speytime

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I am having problems with my 2 turn surgeon/water knots failing. I use a Hardy 6lb tapered leader and then a 18inch length of .014 Stroft then a 36 inch length of .01 Stroft.
The knot usually breaks leaving it on the up rod end if you follow me. I am careful to tie carefully and use plenty of spit to lubricate. All the nylon is fresh this year.
Is the problem just me or is it to do with the relative diameters of the twang?
Chiron

It's very very fine diameter 0.14 down to 0.1, my go to is mono is 0.23 6lb, why do you want/need it so fine?
Al
 

chiron

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I used a three turn water knot on Wednesday and it failed despite slow tighten and lots of spit.Then did a two turn and it was fine all morning catching several brownies and grayling. I was broken by a big stockie which charged off into the weed.
So after lunch I tied a figure of eight and no problems at all.
Still a bit confused and am wondering if ther might be an issue with the Stroft. I keep it in the dark in a pocket in my fly vest but I find that it sometimes pigtails when I handle it and think it could be a reaction to the what ever might be on my fingertips.
The figure of eight was easy to tie after a bit of practice.
If I use it to provide a dropper I presume it best to use the down line end?
 

taffy1

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Well within my comfort zone
Always been comfortable with the knots I've tied in any of the materials I see fit for use at that particular time, be it leader connections, droppers or attaching the lures. Someone once wrote, "The secret to fishing is that there is no secret, except for attention to detail".
 

richfish1

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Just something to remember that may seem blatantly obvious, but not everyone does it.... test your knots after you've tied them, before you fish.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

speytime

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Used a figure of eight for dropper and fly last twice out, landed 8 fish 2 around 4lb and extremely hard fighting no problems with it ��.
Al
 

colliedog

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I find a 2 turn water/surgeons knot very dependable on stroft of same or similar diameter. Less so if there is a significant difference and relatively, 0.14 to 0.10 is quite significant. I therefore try to keep the difference to around 0.02mm when stepping down even if it means an extra section of nylon.

I have been trying out the figure of eight dropper knot this season and it seems very easy to tie and reliable, at least with similar diameter nylons
 
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