Typical amount of line out before shooting

shortcircuit

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
275
Hi folks,

Am just playing about with my new 4# rod. The WF line I'm using has a total head length of 46 ft, and there is a colour change there. So I was thinking that for best shooting, I should get all that line out of the rod tip before I shoot. However it feels very cumbersome having that much line in the air

I know every rod is different, but in general do you get the entire head out before shooting, or would you get, say, 30 ft out and then shoot from there.

This is probably all a bit academic because I will be using this rod for river fishing where long casting is not so important
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,007
Location
South Northants
It depends whether or not you are a capable enough caster to effectively hold 46ft of 4wt line in the air.
 

boisker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
2,936
Location
Devon
Hi folks,

Am just playing about with my new 4# rod. The WF line I'm using has a total head length of 46 ft, and there is a colour change there. So I was thinking that for best shooting, I should get all that line out of the rod tip before I shoot. However it feels very cumbersome having that much line in the air

I know every rod is different, but in general do you get the entire head out before shooting, or would you get, say, 30 ft out and then shoot from there.

This is probably all a bit academic because I will be using this rod for river fishing where long casting is not so important

lit depends how far you want to cast....
for example if you are casting 70’, with a 9’ rod,,, then the head plus rod gives you 55’... so you’d only need to shoot 15’ to hit the 70’ mark, so you could carry less than the full head... if you were casting 80’ then the whole head would be better...
if you don’t like the feel of carrying the full head... and you’re not planning on casting that sort of distance I wouldn’t worry about it, or get a shooting head:)
or improve your casting technique;)
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
5,603
It's the first 30’ of the line that is designed to be the optimum weight for the rod. After that you're overloading the rod.

With with a nine foot rod, 30’ of line in the air, a very modest 10’ of shooting line, and a 12’ leader you're comfortably casting 61’. That's normally more than enough, particularly for a light rod.

Of course you can aerialise more line, but it's hard work and not many can do it and still turn over the leader.
 

boisker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
2,936
Location
Devon
It's the first 30’ of the line that is designed to be the optimum weight for the rod. After that you're overloading the rod.

With with a nine foot rod, 30’ of line in the air, a very modest 10’ of shooting line, and a 12’ leader you're comfortably casting 61’. That's normally more than enough, particularly for a light rod.

Of course you can aerialise more line, but it's hard work and not many can do it and still turn over the leader.

I’d half agree tangled...
the 61’ example you give would be more than enough in most situations

but the head of a weight forward line is designed to be carried, followed by running line to shoot... carrying a head of 46’ shouldn’t be hard work, if it is then that’s a casting technique issue... picking up and laying down the full head is relatively easy
 

LukeNZ

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
2,713
Location
Hawkes Bay, NZ
It's the first 30’ of the line that is designed to be the optimum weight for the rod. After that you're overloading the rod.

With with a nine foot rod, 30’ of line in the air, a very modest 10’ of shooting line, and a 12’ leader you're comfortably casting 61’. That's normally more than enough, particularly for a light rod.

Of course you can aerialise more line, but it's hard work and not many can do it and still turn over the leader.

A proficient caster would rely on line speed, and a good double haul to shoot any additional non aerialised line, to go further, not overload the rod, and have sufficient energy remaining to roll over the leader and fly.

🙃
 

andygrey

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
3,319
Location
West Oxfordshire
It's the first 30’ of the line that is designed to be the optimum weight for the rod. After that you're overloading the rod.
We have been here many times before and it's a proper rabbit hole...
Rods aren't designed to cast to their optimum with the weight of the first 30' and do not necessarily become 'overloaded' past this. They are rated against the AFTM number of a line based on a subjective judgment by the manufacturer, and if properly assessed will be cast at various lengths - not just at 30'. So basically it comes down to what the tester thinks is the best match of line weight to the blank. This is complicated somewhat by how the manufacturer wants to market the blank, i.e. fast, medium or slow. A slow 6wt could be a medium 5wt or a fast 4wt
It's also useful to remember that it is the caster that 'overloads' the rod, not the line. The term 'Overloading' is also somewhat misleading as it implies that you are flexing the rod past its design restrictions.
 

Paul_B

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Messages
4,253
Location
West Riding of Yorkshire
You can usually judge when casting what the best length for rod line combination, but there's also the well tried method of, catch grass on the back cast = too much out :whistle:
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
5,603
To all

A good caster can do a lot of things with a rod and line that your average weekend angler can't. There's no point using double-hauling, professional casting as the standard when we're talking to everyday anglers.

If we're talking to a relative beginner or someone that's been an occasional angler for a long time and doesn't study these things in detail, it's best to keep things simple and standard.

Lines ARE designed to be optimal at 30’ - or should be - when they deliberately vary from that they should say so (some do some don't, many just get it wrong.)

We know that the ATFMA/AFTTA 'standards' are at very best subjective but they are what we have.
 

andygrey

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
3,319
Location
West Oxfordshire
To all

A good caster can do a lot of things with a rod and line that your average weekend angler can't. There's no point using double-hauling, professional casting as the standard when we're talking to everyday anglers.

If we're talking to a relative beginner or someone that's been an occasional angler for a long time and doesn't study these things in detail, it's best to keep things simple and standard.

Lines ARE designed to be optimal at 30’ - or should be - when they deliberately vary from that they should say so (some do some don't, many just get it wrong.)

We know that the ATFMA/AFTTA 'standards' are at very best subjective but they are what we have.
I have to disagree, with respect, to say that lines are designed to be 'optimal' at 30' doses't really make sense.
The AFTMA standard is a guide for manufactures but they design lines around this and as we all know there is a bewildering array of different profiles and head weights that are all 'rated' the same.
Different line designs are designed to do different things and to suit different casting styles, abilities and fishing situations. It's not juts about being able to cast to their 'optimum' at 30'
 

boisker

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
2,936
Location
Devon
To all

A good caster can do a lot of things with a rod and line that your average weekend angler can't. There's no point using double-hauling, professional casting as the standard when we're talking to everyday anglers.

If we're talking to a relative beginner or someone that's been an occasional angler for a long time and doesn't study these things in detail, it's best to keep things simple and standard.

Lines ARE designed to be optimal at 30’ - or should be - when they deliberately vary from that they should say so (some do some don't, many just get it wrong.)

We know that the ATFMA/AFTTA 'standards' are at very best subjective but they are what we have.

that’s ok tangled.... you just answer your own question, with your own slightly misunderstood view on rod / line weights....
or you could just answer the question the op posed about head length ;)
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
5,603
that’s ok tangled.... you just answer your own question, with your own slightly misunderstood view on rod / line weights....
or you could just answer the question the op posed about head length ;)

I did. The first 30’ of a line is the weight of line that conforms to the standard that the rod is designed to be optimal for.

There are all sorts of ifs and buts, but that statement stands. The alternative is absolutely anything at all - just say something you like.
 

andygrey

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
3,319
Location
West Oxfordshire
I did. The first 30’ of a line is the weight of line that conforms to the standard that the rod is designed to be optimal for.
Yes, but an important distinction is that the rod is not designed to be optimal at 30' of line.
It is designed to cast a line who's specification is defined by the first 30' of line.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
5,603
Yes, but an important distinction is that the rod is not designed to be optimal at 30' of line.
It is designed to cast a line who's specification is defined by the first 30' of line.

I think to most people that's a distinction without a difference and no help at all to the non-professional.
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,007
Location
South Northants
To all

A good caster can do a lot of things with a rod and line that your average weekend angler can't. There's no point using double-hauling, professional casting as the standard when we're talking to everyday anglers.
Well, that's double-hauling dismissed for 'everyday anglers'.

Your statement is hugely naive and lacks any appreciation of what a double haul is all about. It's not about some phantom 'professional caster' attempting to cast over the horizon - it's about maximising appropriate line speed with the minimum effort - the dry fly fisherman facing a downstream breeze, the haul may be only 8" but in the circumstances, for everyday fisherman it's a particularly useful skill.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
5,603
Well, that's double-hauling dismissed for 'everyday anglers'.

Your statement is hugely naive and lacks any appreciation of what a double haul is all about. It's not about some phantom 'professional caster' attempting to cast over the horizon - it's about maximising appropriate line speed with the minimum effort - the dry fly fisherman facing a downstream breeze, the haul may be only 8" but in the circumstances, for everyday fisherman it's a particularly useful skill.

Er, we're talking to a beginner here...
 

Rhithrogena

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2020
Messages
627
To the OP. Learn to double haul with a casting instructor (if you live within reach of East Cornwall I will give you a free 1hr lesson). This should be seen as an ESSENTIAL fly fishing life skill.
Do not get confused by all the above about rods and line ratings. There is much wisdom therein but it's complicated. At this stage stick to the line rating on the rod.
Richard
 
Top