Understanding Carbon Trout Rods

andygrey

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Not what I meant if that's what it sounded like, but a tail wind would be an example, a big loop catches the wind on the way out, and also a heavier line with very consistent line tension is a hard loop to stop, the surface area presented to a head wind is just one factor.
I think you have to draw a distinction between loop size and loop shape. Ideally for an efficient cast you want parallel rod and fly legs in both the horizontal and vertical plane and them to be close together. Fly casting is all about straight lines and a big open or non-loop dissipates it's energy in more directions than a smaller loop with parallel legs.
If you are fishing a team of flies you may want to open your loop a bit but still want parallel legs.
 

Tangled

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Not what I meant if that's what it sounded like, but a tail wind would be an example, a big loop catches the wind on the way out, and also a heavier line with very consistent line tension is a hard loop to stop, the surface area presented to a head wind is just one factor.

I've never thought about opening a loop up to get the wind to take it before...

No problem with the heavier line, obviously it's easier to cast a heavy lure with a heavy line (and rod). I've fixed the sentence.

What I'm not getting is this

if anything big flies are easier cast on a rod that bends smoothly.

If you take special circumstances like wind out of the equation I couldn't think of an occasion when softer rods casting wider loops could throw any fly further - large or small.
 

ohanzee

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If you take special circumstances like wind out of the equation I couldn't think of an occasion when softer rods casting wider loops could throw any fly further - large or small.

Not necessarily further but smoother(which can mean further) to take an extreme example if you cast a big pike fly on a stiff rod it's hard work, you lose line tension at the end of every stroke and it gets jerky.
A softer rod is less jerky because it bends more and lets us maintain line tension throughout the cast, same reason we use an oval cast to keeping the line in constant tension to the fly.

We are drifting a bit though.
 

andygrey

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I've never thought about opening a loop up to get the wind to take it before...
I'm a bit conflicted about this for a few reasons. One being that unless the wind is blowing in exactly the casting plane (i.e. directly ahead or behind you) then you risk compromising the true casting plane. I think on balance, tight narrow loops win the day every time.
No problem with the heavier line, obviously it's easier to cast a heavy lure with a heavy line (and rod). I've fixed the sentence.

What I'm not getting is this



If you take special circumstances like wind out of the equation I couldn't think of an occasion when softer rods casting wider loops could throw any fly further - large or small.
As stated above, tighter loops are nearly always the way forward (unless you are making a constant tension back-cast such as a Belgium Cast, various other out of plane casts or fishing a team of fly's where you want to reduce the possibility of tangles). When casting a big heavy fly, you can quite often get a 'kick' as the fly turns over on so a softer rod can help to absorb this to a certain extent and smooth out the power application (see your link to the 'Einstein Fly Casting...' article). I do quite a bit of fly fishing for pike with very big flies and a very fast outfit is much more difficult to cast than a slightly softer one.
 

andygrey

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Not necessarily further but smoother(which can mean further) to take an extreme example if you cast a big pike fly on a stiff rod it's hard work, you lose line tension at the end of every stroke and it gets jerky.
A softer rod is less jerky because it bends more and lets us maintain line tension throughout the cast, same reason we use an oval cast to keeping the line in constant tension to the fly.

We are drifting a bit though.
Ha! Great minds!
 

Tangled

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You'll be pleased to hear that I've moved the 'controversy' section to the end and called it 'Discussion' so it now reads like a standard science paper - Introduction, findings, discussion. But happily, no conclusion.
 

ed_t

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You'll be pleased to hear that I've moved the 'controversy' section to the end and called it 'Discussion' so it now reads like a standard science paper - Introduction, findings, discussion. But happily, no conclusion.
Conclusion: modern carbon rods are great and mortals can achieve distances and flexibility in differing situations that was once the preserve of expert casters. Long may the top end manufacturers and pioneers keep refining and researching, looking for the incremental and step changes that mortals can benefit from.
 

ohanzee

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It all seems rather inconclusive, being led down a path to a dead end..

Its quite normal in academic papers to complete a report with the current state of peer debate, lets the reader know what is established and what is still up for grabs.
 

LukeNZ

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Its quite normal in academic papers to complete a report with the current state of peer debate, lets the reader know what is established and what is still up for grabs.
An academic paper is not normally just a bunch of internet bytes with questionable logic linking them together.

This collection of info seems more like an opinion piece from the perspective of somebody trying to explain running, before they have mastered walking..

🙃
 

ohanzee

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An academic paper is not normally just a bunch of internet bytes with questionable logic linking them together.

This collection of info seems more like an opinion piece from the perspective of somebody trying to explain running, before they have mastered walking..

🙃

No harm in following proven writing structures, it just puts things in a logical and digestible way.

I don't think it was intended to be the Encyclopedia Britannica:)
 

Tangled

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I wonder what we think about this?
1627583451686.png



I think that all it's saying is that stiff action rods have more power than soft action rods and that it's more or less a 1:1 relationship.
(You could draw a line bottom left corner to top right corner and find a remarkably good fit.)

Although there is no actual metrics here and no description of how the various rods are measured - it may just be a representational schematic.
 

bobmiddlepoint

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Looks like more hogwash to me! Probably mainly marketing hogwash at that.

"Fast action rods feature softer tips than medium action rods"???

There are a few other gems in there too.


Andy
 

karlsson

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Looks like more hogwash to me! Probably mainly marketing hogwash at that.

"Fast action rods feature softer tips than medium action rods"???

There are a few other gems in there too.


Andy
Well, usually action is used to describe the bending pattern of a rod in counterflex, fast action has a softer tip, medium action has a stiffer. While being cast they all look more or less similar, unless its the marketing departement drawing up theoretical sketches of bend rods🤣

... and since they have softer tips, the butt tends to get stiffer, hence the misleading "power" attribution... they are all quite poor springs...

Cheers
Lasse
 

LukeNZ

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I wonder what we think about this?View attachment 41804


I think that all it's saying is that stiff action rods have more power than soft action rods and that it's more or less a 1:1 relationship.
(You could draw a line bottom left corner to top right corner and find a remarkably good fit.)

Although there is no actual metrics here and no description of how the various rods are measured - it may just be a representational schematic.
Looks more like you confirming that you don't understand carbon rods yet?

🙃
 

Tangled

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While being cast they all look more or less similar, unless its the marketing departement drawing up theoretical sketches of bend rods🤣

Lasse
I think you need to post your 'casting two rods' video Lasse
 

ohanzee

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As it's defined a stiff thing will always have more 'power' if you can bend it enough to be useful to the function, but how much 'power' do you need? the average river fisher for example would probably choose something that bends easier at short distances, effectively less 'power'.
 

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