Understanding Carbon Trout Rods

LukeNZ

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Mechanical advantage is a measure of the force amplification achieved by using a tool, mechanical device or machine system. The device trades off input forces against movement to obtain a desired amplification in the output force. The model for this is the law of the lever. Machine components designed to manage forces and movement in this way are called mechanisms.[1]
Exactly what I said Tangled.
 

ohanzee

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What do you trade for speed?

Your soul.

Line speed comes from rotation, the bit where the lever is moving fastest at the tip end, if the rod is too stiff or too long it can slow your ability to rotate quickly, for example I can rotate a 9' rod faster than an 11' one, interesting trade off there.

If the rod is too soft for the weight on it(not enough power in Tangled/marketing speak) it bends absorbing some of the rotational speed, how much you loose I'd argue is not worth discussing unless your into competition casting, and I have yet to find a rod that didn't have enough 'power' to do everything mentioned above.
 

LukeNZ

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Your soul.

Line speed comes from rotation, the bit where the lever is moving fastest at the tip end, if the rod is too stiff or too long it can slow your ability to rotate quickly, for example I can rotate a 9' rod faster than an 11' one, interesting trade off there.

If the rod is too soft for the weight on it(not enough power in Tangled/marketing speak) it bends absorbing some of the rotational speed, how much you loose I'd argue is not worth discussing unless your into competition casting, and I have yet to find a rod that didn't have enough 'power' to do everything mentioned above.

You can’t specify a soul, as it is not a tangible force. More of a concept, to ease our pain..

🙃
 

LukeNZ

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Line speed comes from the compression of distance into less time, through the application of more power (force compressed into time).

🙃
 

ohanzee

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Line speed comes from the compression of distance into less time, through the application of more power (force compressed into time).

🙃

I think you think that sounds like it makes sense, so..long stroke/rotation or short - which for maximum line speed?
 

ejw

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To go back to post 670, where I stated a 6' 3wt = 20m and an 11' 3wt = 30+m. A comment came back that it was a lever, then "could you just use an arm". This was done at a club casting competition by one of our members. Once with just a tip section, then with just his arm ! In both cases a full fly line was cast. Never seen it done anywhere else and not met anyone who could copy it.
It does make you think though - is it all hype that we need rods ?
Now I await 10 pages of theory, for what is a hobby that I use for relaxation.
 

Vintage Badger

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It's nothing to do with huge strength, it's down to technique, timing and momentum. A good caster with a poor fly rod will cast further and better than a bad caster with an excellent fly rod. The 'how it's used' part is far more important than the rod itself, in terms of both casting and fishing.

Instead of spending hundreds of pounds on a new fly rod and several hours reading reviews and other such guff when choosing which rod to buy, the inconvenient truth is that the average fly fisher would be better off spending half that amount of money on some casting lessons from a qualified instructor and spending a few hours a week practicing, both in between those lessons and afterwards. And that's all people really need to understand about fly rods, be they carbon, cane or fibreglass. :)
 
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ed_t

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When a rod becomes too long it gets too heavy to swing. But we can swing heavier rods with two hands so that's what we do, and yes, we can cast heavier weight further with longer two handed rods than with shorter single handed rods. ie they are more powerful.
The correct term would be "longer".

The mechanical advantage is the same as a gearbox in a car. Daft to describe a low gear as less powerful than a high gear.
 

ohanzee

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To go back to post 670, where I stated a 6' 3wt = 20m and an 11' 3wt = 30+m. A comment came back that it was a lever, then "could you just use an arm". This was done at a club casting competition by one of our members. Once with just a tip section, then with just his arm ! In both cases a full fly line was cast. Never seen it done anywhere else and not met anyone who could copy it.
It does make you think though - is it all hype that we need rods ?
Now I await 10 pages of theory, for what is a hobby that I use for relaxation.

You would have noticed how fast they had to move their arm? a rod/lever lets you move the rod tip at high speed with a relative slower speed at the handle, more relaxing that way.
 

Tangled

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The correct term would be "longer".
A 9' #7 Sage Method is no longer than a 9' #5 Sage Method, but it is more powerful.

And, as I keep having to say, 'powerful' is not my word, it's the word that the makers and the marketer use to describe their rods.

And it's perfectly reasonable and easily understood - a more powerful thing can go faster, lift heavier weights etc etc.
 

Tangled

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Exactly what I said Tangled.

You wish... This is what you said

"You cannot get more out than you put in. You are trading power for speed, and losing some power in that conversion.

You cannot buck basic physics; well not on planet earth, anyway."


You've missed the entire point of a lever.

In a casting stroke I can move my forearm through an arc of 45 degrees - a movement of about 12". With a 9' rod in my hand that movement is translated into a movement of about 12' by the rod tip. And because the rod tip has to cover that 12' in the same time that my hand takes to move 12" it's moving much faster.

The energy to do that is what we expend overcoming the inertia of the rod and moving it that 12", in return we get a large movement of the rod tip and an accelerated line. We're not getting more out than we put in, we're using the mechanical advantage of the tool to amplify our arm movements for a given outcome.

We get the opposite effect when we hook a fish. It that case the mechanical advantage works in the fish's favour. The fish can put a lot of torque into our arm because it's on the right end of the lever. And because our arm is at the wrong end of the lever for this task it can apply very little force on the fish.
 

PaulD

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And it's perfectly reasonable and easily understood - a more powerful thing can go faster, lift heavier weights etc etc.
On its own or in the hands of a caster?

We could all sit in a Formula 1 car, press the pedal to the metal on a straight road and achieve 390kmph. Sadly, on a F1 Grand Prix track, most of us would be dead by the end of the first lap.
 

ed_t

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A 9' #7 Sage Method is no longer than a 9' #5 Sage Method, but it is more powerful.

And, as I keep having to say, 'powerful' is not my word, it's the word that the makers and the marketer use to describe their rods.

And it's perfectly reasonable and easily understood - a more powerful thing can go faster, lift heavier weights etc etc.
It is stiffer, higher mechanical advantage due to stiffness. No more, no less powerful because it has no power, just as a gearbox has no power.
 

ed_t

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You wish... This is what you said

"You cannot get more out than you put in. You are trading power for speed, and losing some power in that conversion.

You cannot buck basic physics; well not on planet earth, anyway."


You've missed the entire point of a lever.

In a casting stroke I can move my forearm through an arc of 45 degrees - a movement of about 12". With a 9' rod in my hand that movement is translated into a movement of about 12' by the rod tip. And because the rod tip has to cover that 12' in the same time that my hand takes to move 12" it's moving much faster.

The energy to do that is what we expend overcoming the inertia of the rod and moving it that 12", in return we get a large movement of the rod tip and an accelerated line. We're not getting more out than we put in, we're using the mechanical advantage of the tool to amplify our arm movements for a given outcome.

We get the opposite effect when we hook a fish. It that case the mechanical advantage works in the fish's favour. The fish can put a lot of torque into our arm because it's on the right end of the lever. And because our arm is at the wrong end of the lever for this task it can apply very little force on the fish.
What luke has described is perfectly reasonable. Levers and by extension gears are either force multipliers or distance multipliers.

The ideal rigid fly rod is a distance multiplier so more force at the drive end than the driven end, and more speed at the driven end than the drive end.

The losses through system inefficiency mean extra force is required at the drive end then is delivered at the driven end.
 

Tangled

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It is stiffer, higher mechanical advantage due to stiffness. No more, no less powerful because it has no power, just as a gearbox has no power.
'Power' is a metaphor. We all know that rods have no intrinsic power. It's used as a way of describing the observation that in competent hands some rods can throw heavier weights further than others.

The reason they can do this is a combination of many factors: length, stiffness, MOI, build, frequency and taper. The result is what most normal human beings - and the rod making industry - calls power.

If you wish to continue to argue purely semantically I'll leave you to it.
 

Tangled

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On its own or in the hands of a caster?

We could all sit in a Formula 1 car, press the pedal to the metal on a straight road and achieve 390kmph. Sadly, on a F1 Grand Prix track, most of us would be dead by the end of the first lap.
Yeh, on its own - it's magic Paul, pure magic. ffs.
 

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