Understanding Carbon Trout Rods

Hardrar

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When I was much fitter and younger, I was keen on entering casting competitions, both fly and beach, I remember well back in the 80s, winning an open distance comp with an 8’-9” Loomis IMX #4 - everyone else was using longer #7-9 weight outfits and many hadn’t seen a Loomis rod back
then.( I brought this back from Bois in CA)
The shorter rod length, gives much greater tip speed due to less resistance in the hand and although lighter a #4 line offers less wind resistance in flight. ( obviously there’s no heavy large fly to tow along in a comp) It caused quite a stir, but regardless of choice of gear, it matters not - it’s the Pilots skill that only really is relevant.
I used to spend three or four evenings a week perfecting distance over grass all Spring and Summer.
 

Tangled

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I like beach casting. Why can't I use more than a 3 oz weight on my 4-8 oz 12'6" rod?
You can use anything you like - less or more - whatever.

I'm merely suggesting that maybe it would be a good idea if the manufacturers told us the weight their products where designed for and kept to their standards. You know, like spinning rods and salmon rods and your beach caster. Are single-handed fly rods a special case?
 

ed_t

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You can use anything you like - less or more - whatever.

I'm merely suggesting that maybe it would be a good idea if the manufacturers told us the weight their products where designed for and kept to their standards. You know, like spinning rods and salmon rods and your beach caster. Are single-handed fly rods a special case?
No, see above. The reccomended line weight is just that.
 

ohanzee

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You can use anything you like - less or more - whatever.

I'm merely suggesting that maybe it would be a good idea if the manufacturers told us the weight their products where designed for and kept to their standards. You know, like spinning rods and salmon rods and your beach caster. Are single-handed fly rods a special case?

I get your point but don't see the problem, there are rods on, under and over ERN, and lines on or over their AFTM, we know what they are and choose accordingly, I find rods more accurately rated than when they had things like 5-7 weight written on the rod.
 

LukeNZ

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We should not forget the main point of contention, Tangled's original premise was that the system was broken, because we had lines heavier than their AFTM, and rods with a higher ERN to cast them(presumed) ...a fair comment, there are 5 weight rods that have the relative stiffness of 7 weights.

I don't agree with the broken bit but what do you do when manufacturers stretch the system?
...embrace it !

🙃
 

Tangled

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So you know that the difference is not that much?
Yes Ohanzee, I know the difference is not very much, one # step is the weight of business card. It’s almost like you don’t properly read what I write :)
 

ejw

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In all this debate, it seems that "Manufactures" have been forgotten ? Why is the system(s) faulty, because manufactures want us to by "new" gear. Who altered line weights by "specialising" them. Who made stiff/soft/trough action rods ? Not the flyfisher !
Accept the hype = you buy the latest kit, be that rod or line at silly prices. Then the Flyfisher moans about the price, lack of a standard, flylines being over weighted ect.
You have the choice, find a rod and line set up that you like regardless of what it says it is.
The ATFM rating is a guide, casting weights are a guide. As it has been said, it is the "Engine Driver" that makes the difference. Don't fall for the advertising, go for something that works for YOU.
 

Vintage Badger

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In all this debate, it seems that "Manufactures" have been forgotten ? Why is the system(s) faulty, because manufactures want us to by "new" gear. Who altered line weights by "specialising" them. Who made stiff/soft/trough action rods ? Not the flyfisher !
Accept the hype = you buy the latest kit, be that rod or line at silly prices. Then the Flyfisher moans about the price, lack of a standard, flylines being over weighted ect.
You have the choice, find a rod and line set up that you like regardless of what it says it is.
The ATFM rating is a guide, casting weights are a guide. As it has been said, it is the "Engine Driver" that makes the difference. Don't fall for the advertising, go for something that works for YOU.
Dead right, and don't be peer pressured into becoming a trend sheep either! When a newcomer asks for advice, how many times do we read "On small stillwaters 'everyone' fishes with a 9' #5 weight rod these days, so that's what you should buy."?

No, not 'everyone' uses a 9' #5 weight set-up! I use a 9' 6" #6. I bought the rod in 2008 and it still casts nicely and catches me fish, so why change it and drop a line weight (if I could actually believe the rod and line manufacturer's stated AFTM ratings these days) just to follow the flock? As, truth be told, that's all I'd really be changing it for, other than experiencing that brief, warm glow of retail therapy! Plus, I'd probably have to spend £600+ to get a similar quality rod these days, then there's always the chance that I won't get on with it as well as I do my current rod, at least to start with.

I think it's perhaps a bit like the situation with personal computers, in that the early ones were OK but the manufactures noticeably improved them over a fairly short period of time, so after a year or so it was worth upgrading to a new one. However, eventually you found that your latest computer and software did everything you needed it to and was reliable, so there was no real need to change it. You could keep it several years then upgrade if something broke or there was a real technological breakthrough that would be of benefit to you. Are we now seeing that situation with carbon fly rods?

A similar thing happened with DSLR cameras; the latter day ones did pretty much everything a photographer could want, so people didn't need to upgrade the camera they'd bought as often. What happened? The manufacturers brought out mirrorless cameras and let the trend sheep flock towards them. Glass fibre fly rod, anyone? It's the future you know. ;)
 
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Scotty Mitchell

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Seeing as I’ve been unable to work this week so far, I’ve been browsing through here a lot, I mean a lot, even the cooking threads have been read!!!
But I honestly can’t believe this pish is still rolling on.
Tangled, I blocked you ages ago, but if you can see this can I just inform you of something.
The rating system works for EVERYONE apart from you.
If you don’t like it, devise your own and apply it to your own rods.
The End.
You understand fk all, and when people try to help you, you argue about it.
I mean really, to pick only 2, I was on this forum before so know very well the pedigree in casting of Ohanzee and PaulD, and you have the audacity to argue with them on subjects like rod action and casting???? Really? Honestly??
Blows my mind. Why not just accept the issue is your own, that others experience far, far outweighs your own and actually LISTEN to said experience and put some of the suggestions into PRACTICE?
Might I suggest you do one from here and go fishing for another 30 years and then maybe you will Understand everything you need to understand, without annoying everyone else.
 
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ohanzee

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If you don’t like it, devise your own and apply it to your own rods.

This is actually the route to it, if anyone can come up with a better way of doing something, do it, then show others that it's better, if it works everyone soon catches on, fly fishing is full of innovative firsts, names like Whitlock, Roman Moser, loads more, they worked it out, did it and became known for their contribution to it, and a few profit from it, if it's not a product write the guide book.
 

karlsson

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Denmark mostly..
Fiction:

I just bought a rod from a manufacturer that states the AFFTA is dead (aftm/aftma for those living in the last century and haven't been updated on the name change, standard is still the same though..) So it's grains or grams that works. On the side of the blank they wrote 12 grams. On the warrenty they state the warrenty is void if I use a line that is heavier.

Now, can anyone answer if it's ok the use a DT 5 floater on said rod? 9,14 meters of it weighs 9,1 grams so I should be ok right?
BTW. I a half decent caster, and can quite easily carry 18 meters of DT5 outside the rodtip ...



Having both length and weight seems to be a good place to make a standard for a variable casting weight that bends easily. Rods don't care, casters do..

Cheers
Lasse
 

ed_t

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Fiction:

I just bought a rod from a manufacturer that states the AFFTA is dead (aftm/aftma for those living in the last century and haven't been updated on the name change, standard is still the same though..) So it's grains or grams that works. On the side of the blank they wrote 12 grams. On the warrenty they state the warrenty is void if I use a line that is heavier.

Now, can anyone answer if it's ok the use a DT 5 floater on said rod? 9,14 meters of it weighs 9,1 grams so I should be ok right?
BTW. I a half decent caster, and can quite easily carry 18 meters of DT5 outside the rodtip ...



Having both length and weight seems to be a good place to make a standard for a variable casting weight that bends easily. Rods don't care, casters do..

Cheers
Lasse
The 4-8 oz beach rod i mentioned was my first beachcaster. That's a 120 to 240 gramme range, give or take.

Now i can cast a bit, anything more than 3 oz/90 gramme i'd be scared of ripping my ears off and getting clocked round the head with a fast moving lead because i can outcast the rod rating.

The rod rating isn't wrong because your average beginner or intermediate caster won't push it to its limits.

When casting skill develops a bit, then a bit more, then you get some lessons, then you go to a competition or two... that rod becomes a noodle. But i love that noodle.

3oz weight and a string of mackerel feathers and i'm still casting further than average jo.

Back to fly rods... 9.17g or 12.99, or 6.51g...

It still all depends on the caster (the power source) and the caster's ability.
 

aenoon

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Linlithgow, Scotland and anywhere i can wet a line
Fiction:

I just bought a rod from a manufacturer that states the AFFTA is dead (aftm/aftma for those living in the last century and haven't been updated on the name change, standard is still the same though..) So it's grains or grams that works. On the side of the blank they wrote 12 grams. On the warrenty they state the warrenty is void if I use a line that is heavier.

Now, can anyone answer if it's ok the use a DT 5 floater on said rod? 9,14 meters of it weighs 9,1 grams so I should be ok right?
BTW. I a half decent caster, and can quite easily carry 18 meters of DT5 outside the rodtip ...



Having both length and weight seems to be a good place to make a standard for a variable casting weight that bends easily. Rods don't care, casters do..

Cheers
Lasse
You been out for a few beers Lasse?
 

Tangled

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No, see above. The reccomended line weight is just that.

So salmon rods, spinning rods and beach casting rods show a recommended weight and you say that fly rods are not a special case yet they don't need to show a recommended weight? I think you're just being stubborn now.

If fly lines stuck to their standard and if fly rods had not developed beyond their original purpose, the AFTTA code would be fine, but they don't and they haven't. So, just like the salmon line rating and rod weightings changed, fly rods need to change too.
 

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