Understanding Casting

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Tangled

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*** This post is still in development and will be substantially changed during the discussions that follow below. At the moment it's just a collection of stuff that hopefully people might find useful, it will get more organised as we go on.***

If you have any interesting information/vides please contribute.

Come back regularly!


You can’t understand casting without doing it – a lot. But that doesn’t mean you can’t educate yourself about the theory of it, listen to what expert casters say and watch how they do it.

Before we start, let it be known that the site...

www.sexyloops.com

... Is the place that contains more information about casting than anywhere else on this planet or any others that may yet be found. It's populated by a bunch of extraordinarily talented and enthusiastic nerds people that have been responsible for a very large part of the development and understanding of fly casting and learning.

What follows is largely a tribute to what Paul Arden and others has achieved with that site, and, more than is really polite, cribs from it extensively.

Casting Instructional Videos

Paul Arden at SexyLoops

The ultimate fly bum, Paul Arden manages to make a living from fly fishing and rod making (his is the rather eccentrically named Hot Torpedo brand). He’s a great instructor and caster. Currently living on a boat in Malaysia, Paul claims to be averaging 330+ days per year fishing and is well on his way to his target of 10,000 fishing days.

Paul Arden Video Casting Masterclasses
https://www.sexyloops.com/flycast/

Simon Gawseworth at RIO
My other favourite casting instructor, often thought of as a double-handed rod casting guy but can cast everything well. He’s written two excellent books on both single and double-handed casting (tho’ the single-handed book is out of print). Currently works for RIO.

RIO Casting Videos (click on the “How to” Video dropdown)
https://www.rioproducts.com/learn/videos

Joan Wulff at Winston
Included here not just because she’s literally a world class caster and instructor but also to demonstrate that physical power is not what makes a great caster.

Joan Wulff Casting Videos
https://winstonrods.com/videos/instructional-videos/

Peter Kutzer at Orvis
Orvis uses Peter to create a series of useful and straightforward casting videos.

Peter Kutzer – Orvis

There's also a series of Peter's videos on Youtube. Look to the right of this page under "Mix - The Orvis company.

Jim Green
This is an ancient video of Jim Green who designed rods for Fenwick and Sage back in the transition from Fibreglass to Carbon. It’s here because he describes and demonstrates the overhead cast really well.


Doug Swisher
He’s here because I couldn’t resist the name. He lands 3lb browns in his left hand whilst holding his rod in the other. He also apparently has an ‘educated, micro-second wrist’ – and some interesting casts in his advanced video.


Theory
Better start with Bill Gammel's 5 Essentials as they've been incredibly influential in the teaching and development of fly casting.

1. The Straight Line Path (SLP)
The rod tip must travel along a straight line when viewed from the side and from above.

2. Varying the casting arc
Vary the size of the casting arc according to the amount of line outside the rod tip.

3. The Pause
The pause between each cast to allow the line to straighten must get longer as the line gets longer (correct timing). Learn to vary the timing and the stroke length to maintain the straight-line path of the rod tip.

4. Correct application of power
The power must be applied at the proper place, at the proper time. (Smooth acceleration to an abrupt stop.)

5. Removing slack
Slack must be kept to a minimum.

It's worth pointing out that the 5 Es aren't laws and they're not totally literal. For example the casting arc when viewed from the side can never be a dead straight line, but a SLP is something we try to get as near to for as long as possible.

There are also casts that we make that deliberately break the straight line path to achieve a particular goal eg steeple cast, pendulum cast, Belgium cast.

We can deliberately overpower a cast too, eg the curve cast. We can even deliberately create a tailing loop to collapse a cast. But you get the idea; get the basic cast right first.

If you want to see someone breaking the SLP into small pieces yet chucking a line a long way:

Long article on casting by Paul Arden
Covering pretty much everything


Loading a rod and levers and springs
People commonly speak about loading a rod; they say that they can feel the rod load when casting. It’s a very common word and you’ll see it used in most magazines, books and videos and whenever people meet to talk about casting.

Load is a straightforward term meaning to apply a force to something; in this case our rod. We feel the load we’re applying force to in our arm as a resistance or heaviness. We feel the rod bend into the cast. It provides a very useful feedback loop for training ourselves into applying the force at the right moment and with the right amount.

But some years ago it was not a simple statement to say that we load a rod. There were many rows and friendships lost over the word ‘load’ and in some circles it's become a trigger word; a little bit toxic. So I’d better just explain why so that people don’t fall into the same ephalump trap. The wounds have not yet healed.

The problem seems to be that some people imagined the rod to be only a long spring; loading it (ie applying force) stored energy in the rod and stopping the rod sharply released that energy, propelling the line forward (or backward).

A spring stores and releases energy – compressing a spring or stretching elastic fills them with potential energy just dying to be released. To use a catapult you stretch the elastic, storing energy, and when you release it you watch the stone fly forward using the energy you stored in it. But the bow and arrow cast is, in fact, the only example of the rod being used entirely like a spring.

The other tribe believed the rod to be only a lever. In the case of a lever, the force (load) we apply by the hand rotating a small distance, makes the tip of the rod move a relatively large distance. Because the tip moves further than the hand but in the same period of time it is forced to move faster accelerating the line.

This is called mechanical advantage and it’s why dog walkers use those long ball launchers and why medieval trebuchets can lob a boulder over a castle's ramparts. Up to a point, the longer the arm of the lever, the greater the distance or weight that can be thrown. For a single-handed rod, that point seems to be around 9' to 9'6" in expert hands. Double-handed rods change the game because the two-handed stroke can exert more rotational force for longer and so also throw heavier and longer.

We now know that the casting stroke uses both lever and spring mechanics during the cast with the lever contributing by far the most, particularly in shorter casts.

There's some evidence that the spring contributes more as longer casts are made - perhaps 80:20, lever:spring. Here's the source paper.


So lever wins by a long margin, but spring is present and very necessary – it adds a little extra umph to the cast at the right place (the end) and it smooths out the cast protecting our joints from sharp shocks.

There's nothing wrong with the term “load”, we just need to understand its generalised meaning.

The End (fat chance!)

Soon Lee - Fly Casting Loop Dynamics

This is an excellent series of short (5 mins) animated videos of how the rod tip and line moves in real life. He demonstrates that the Straight Line Path (SLP) is a rather more complicated thing than we thought and what is actually happening in the stop.

1. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics – Introduction to Loops

2. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics – Understanding Your Fly Cast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhh-0G4apjI

3. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics – The Legacy of a Definition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4h8K4z5NXM

4. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics – Ist SLP Phantom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg9rhg-XeQs&t=1s

5. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics – SLP And Essentials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR8jFWTM-lk

6. Fly Casting Loops Dynamics - Understanding Loop Dynamics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w4QheHOqYk&ab_channel=SoonLee

7. Convex Tip Path
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGli3towkA

Analysing the casting stroke
Great paper comparing expert, intermediate and beginner's casting strokes using an instrument that measures the speed of the rod. Figure 5 below shows how metronomic the expert's casting is, but also how the back cast is a mirror image of the forward cast.


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Miscellaneous Online Information
Fly Fishers International, the US instructors’ association, publish a quarterly online magazine called The Loop that generally has a few good articles in it.

The Loop Magazine
https://www.flyfishersinternational...ing-Instructor-Certification/The-Loop-Journal


Mark Herron – The Curious Fly Caster

Mark has written a really excellent series of artcles on the physics and biomechanical aspects of fly casting. He’s done a lot of scholarly research and rendered it into (mostly) understandable chunks for the non-expert. He also happens to be a member of this forum.
https://thecuriousflycaster.com/articles/physics-for-fly-casting-the-einstein-series-5/
Article about Casting styles


Casting Faults

Good casters can deliberately use techniques that are normally called faults to produce particular kinds of 'presentation' casts. So to be clear, for the purposes of what follows, to be a casting fault, the caster must have made the movement unintentionally and the cast must have been the poorer for it.

(If you're doing a a cast unintentionally that turns out to be a corker, you may have invented a new one and we want to hear about it!)

Definitions
Also to be clear, in order to understand what faults in casting are it's necessary to define terms. I'll (mostly) be using the IFFF's definitions found here:


Unfortunately, like much of fly fishing, there isn't universal acceptance of these definitions and Paul Arden and his associates at Sexyloops have an alternative view which is worth a look.


There is also a discussion about the continued fight over definitions and its history here:


Creep
Creep according to the FFI is "Rod rotation during the pause in the direction of the next cast."
(You'll find a sketch in the link above from the FFI.) If you watch Simon Gawseworth's video at 4 minutes in, you'll see him demonstrate it and hear him describe it as a "nemesis" for the fly caster.

The effect of creep is to shorten the length of the next cast. Consequently the next cast either lacks power and fails or, if the caster attempts to compensate by punching the cast forward, a tailing loop can result (see below).

Simon actually demonstrates translational creep (the hand moving forward horizontally) but I think most instructors say that ANY movement forward - translation or rotation (the hand turning the rod in an arc) - during the pause in the casting stroke is creep.

Unfortunately, according to FFI definitions, when the forward movement is translational it can also be called drag, not creep.

This seems unnecessarily complicated and confused to me especially as a similar movement in the direction of the unfolding loop is called drift (rotational OR translational.) But I guess they have their reasons.

The cure for creep
First it has to be identified, which might not be easy without somebody that knows what they're doing looking at you - remember you're making this movement unconsciously. But once identified, the cure is to force yourself to very deliberately pause, maybe exaggerate and do it for longer. You'll need someone watching you. One instructor tells her students to shout "DON"T MOVE" at the pause. Sounds like it could work.

If you google cures for creep you'll see many of the world's best casters recommending using the movement called drift (as above) in order to compensate for it. I don't think that this is terribly good advice - he says not being one the world's best casters, but hear me out.

First off, drift is a fairly advanced move used mostly by distance casters. What they're doing is making the cast, stopping the rod, then during the pause as the loop unfurls, moving their rod a little further back and upwards. This increases the width of the next cast which is valuable if you want more power and distance. But what if you don't?

Second, the object is to cure the fault, not leave it in place and cover it up with another action. Learning to stop and stay stopped is so important it's worth getting right I reckon. You can add drift later if you want to. (In my view.)

Tailing Loops

If creep is a fault you don't know you have, tailing loops are a fault you very definitely know ALL about when you make one because they tend to make a mess of your leader.

A formal definition of a tailing loop is where the line on top of the loop dips and crosses the bottom of the loop twice (ie the fly leg of the line crosses the rod leg twice.) It looks like this:

1631625251195.png


I suspect the definition has the requirement to cross the rod leg twice to distinguish it from the perfectly ok cast where the fly leg has sagged on the backcast and it coming up from under rod leg.

1632679359507.png


But that formal definition isn't terribly useful because a tail doesn't have to cross twice to be a problem. A tail that is simply a dip in the fly leg can escalate into something big enough to destroy the cast. These small dips are usually called tailing tendencies.

If the legs of the fly line collide, you get a loop that falls in a pile, often a tangle and occasionally a knot in the leader called a wind knot. How a wind knot forms is interesting in a nerdy way, but I've never seen it explained so I'll add my version of it later.

Tailing loops have been researched to death, so best just read Sexyloops' explanations.


But not all demonstrations of tailing loops actually are tailing loops and it's bothered me for a while that when I've seen people throw them, they looked quite artificial to me. Their casts don't look like my casts when I tail and get into a mess. Turns out I'm not alone:


Anyway, this has also been murdered at Sexyloops. Unfortunately it's not yet properly dead


How "Wind" Knots are Formed
It ain't the wind.

I've looked for a good explanation of how the knots are made but not found one; most account just say that they're caused by tailing loops but not how. So here's my best effort.

In the classic tailing loop the flyline leg crosses the rod leg of the fly line twice. But just once would do.

1631551559484-png.png

For that action to create an overhand knot in the line two other things have to happen:

1. one part of the tailing loop must be on one side of the fly leg and one on the other. ie the fly leg and the rod leg of the fly line have crossed. In a knot that’s called an elbow

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2. somehow the fly must have entered the crossed-leg loop to make the knot - the 'working end’ has to pass through the 'elbow’. A loop that has simply crossed/collided would make a mess but not necessarily form an overhand knot.

For 2. to happen the fly must have travelled faster than the crossed loop so as to enter it and then exit it, forming the knot. But the fly can never be moving faster than the loop ahead of it, because it's the loop that's 'towing' the fly. (This is contentious, what's actually happening at the loop is complicated, but let's go with the analogy for a while.)

The fly can't go faster than the loop unless the crossed loop has slowed down. eg. Car, A, is towing Car B and both are doing 30mph. If Car A suddenly brakes and slows down to 10mph and Car B doesn’t also brake, Car B will carry on at 30mph until it either collides with car A or overtakes it.

And it seems that that is what is happening; it's the collision of the fly line legs that slows the fly line in the air, and the momentum that is already in the fly carries it onwards straight through the slowing collided loop. Shazam.


It's probable that there's more than one mechanism that creates the knot. Another likely one is that when the collision has happened the fly drops onto the mess of leader and line lying on the water, and sinks through it, creating the knot which tightens when false casted.

And just on occasion, the wind might blow the fly into the loop.

Weird Casts
Tongariro Roll Cats

Just plonking this here for now

Teaching & Casting Organisations

I was surprised to see how lacking in content both of the UK Instructor’s Associations are. What little there is appears to be behind the members’ enclosure but even there, there’s not much of interest (at least on the GAIA site, I haven’t seen behind the curtain of AAPGAI). It seems a missed opportunity. Anyway, I include them here as they are good at pointing you to qualified instructors.

(btw why do we have two instructors’ association? They’re both tiny organisations doing exactly the same thing. If they got together they’d have half the costs but twice the revenue and be able to do more for their members.)


Game Angling Instructors’ Association (UK), GAIA
https://gameanglinginstructors.co.uk

Association of Advanced Professional Game Angling Instructors (UK), AAPGAI
https://www.aapgai.co.uk


The Americans put on a better show:

Fly Fishing International (USA), FFI
https://www.flyfishersinternational.org/


Other organisations of interest

British Fly Casting Club
https://www.thebfcc.co.uk

Scottish Game Anglers’ Association
http://www.sana.org.uk

International Casting Sport Federation

The Fly Casting Institute
Preparation for the GAIC and APGAI Assessments
Recommended Study Material


Books
Videos & DVDs
Joan Wulff:
Fly Casting Techniques
Casting Accuracy

Lefty Kreh:
Advanced Fly-Casting
Solving Fly-Casting Problems
Modern Fly-Casting Methods
Longer Fly-Casting
Saltwater Fly-Casting Techniques

Mel Krieger: The Essence of Fly-Casting
Jason Borger: The Nature of Fly-Casting

Ed Jawarowski:
The Cast
Trouble shooting the Cast

G.V. Roberts: Master the Cast
Macauley Lord: Flycasting Handbook
Mac Brown: Casting Angles

Al Kyte:
Orvis Guide to better Flycasting
Fly Fishing Simple to Sophisticated

Simon Gawesworth:
Single Handed Spey Casting
Spey casting

Hugh Falkus:
Salmon Fishing
Sea Trout Fishing

Malcolm Greenhalgh: Fishing Flies
A Guide to Flies from around the World.

Oliver Edwards: Flytyers Masterclass

Darrel Martin: Micropatterns

Jeremy Lucas: Tactical Fly Fishing
Joan Wulff’s Dynamics of Fly Casting

Fly Casting with Lefty Kreh

Mel Krieger:
The Essence of Spey Casting
Flycasting Faults and Fixes

Michael Evans:
Trout Fishing and Fly Casting
Spey Casting and Salmon Fishing

Rio Modern Spey Casting

Scott McKenzie’s Spey Casting Masterclass

Ally Gowans: Spey Casting Made Easy

Oliver Edwards;
Essential Skills series
Essential Patterns series

Malcolm Greenhalgh:
Fly Tying and Fly Fishing Masterclass series

Gary Borger:
15 Most Common Casting Errors

Doug Swisher:
Advanced Fly Casting

Instructors recommended by forum members

Robin Elwes
Www.learn2yfish.com for contact details
Areas: London, Reading (sports fish) and the Test
AAPGAI single handed master
double handed master.
Been Farlows main casting instructor since 1988
Recommended by Whingeing Pom

Parked for the moment
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Tangled

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As a piece of history, here's a piece from The Loop Magazine on

HOW “THE FIVE ESSENTIALS” BECAME DOGMA

by Macauley Lord


In 1997, some of the CI candidates I was testing began reciting the numbered “essentials” from Jay and Bill Gammel’s The Essentials of Fly-Casting. When I asked why, they repeatedly said something like this: “The [then] FFF wants us to teach the Five Essentials.” I would tell them that that was not the case, only that the Gammels’ book was a great casting book, as were Joan Wulff’s and Mel Krieger’s. If they had repeated Lefty Kreh’s “Five Principles” instead, which pre-dated the Gammels’ Five Essentials, I still would have asked why. This article discusses the happenstance of why so many instructors still hold the Gammels’ Five Essentials as sacrosanct instead of, for example, Lefty’s Five Principles. (Lefty later amended them to four). More broadly, it illustrates one way in which we teach some of what we teach without questioning it, and the role that perceived authority plays in it.

In an article in the Summer 2016 issue of The Loop, MCI Sekhar Bahadur asked Bill how The Essentials became a cornerstone of the Casting Instructor Certification Program. Bill replied:

I don’t know exactly. This may sound boastful, but I don’t mean it to be. Jim Green told me at a Conclave in Livingston, Montana, that we had written in 24 pages what everyone else had tried
to write in 300. If that was the sentiment in the room, then they probably believed that it was as good a summary as anyone would write. The casting program never truly adopted it as far as I know. It really just became part of the fabric of casting instruction of the FFF because over time so many people began to speak of the Essentials.


Actually, the Five Essentials became a cornerstone because
of happenstance. Seeking to raise the performance of its testing candidates, the Casting Board of Governors needed a study guide for the CI Test. As the editor of The Loop at that time (in 1996 or ’97), I volunteered to write it. In it, I recommended three casting books to aspiring Certified Casting Instructors: Joan Wulff’s, Mel Krieger’s and the Gammels’ pamphlet. Why the Gammels? Bill and I had become good friends, and we talked often about casting and teaching and our families. Bill lamented that their pamphlet had gotten little attention after the FFF had agreed to publish it and sell it for a dollar. So, greatly admiring Bill’s casting and teaching, and liking very much, as I still do, the content of the pamphlet, I recommended it in the Study Guide. It never dawned on me or anyone else on the Board that the concepts (the now-iconic Five Essentials) in the first part of it would become dogma, taught unquestioningly and by rote to beginners.

The FFF office sent the Study Guide to all who inquired about testing, and there were many CI test candidates in those early years of the program. Many recipients of the Study Guide subsequently ordered the Gammels’ pamphlet. Within just a few months, I was hearing directly from CI candidates whom I tested and trained that the Gammels’ pamphlet was how the FFF expected them to teach casting. (After all, the FFF’s imprimatur was on the book itself.) This was, of course, not my intention in the Study Guide, nor was it ever remotely the intention of the Board of Governors. Perhaps everyone now on the Board and nearly all active MCIs were certified in an era when the unquestioned assumption was that the Gammels’ pamphlet was “the FFF way.” And that’s how we got to where we are today, with the Five Essentials being taught to many beginners around the world because of mere happenstance.

For Bill’s high-school graduation present, his father Jay gave him a two-hour lesson with now 12-time world champion Chris Korich in San Francisco. Chris remembers that those two hours turned into a whole day. And there was much discussion of the kernel of what became the Five Essentials. Chris says of that day that he never imagined that what became the Five Essentials would be taught as such to beginners. A Governor-Emeritus who has mentored a generation of high-level casting instructors told me, “I don’t even know the Five Essentials.” A world-renowned Governor-Emeritus says that he has tired of hearing instructors say what they think they’re supposed to say – “the Five Essentials blah blah blah” – to someone of his stature. It’s not at all that he doesn’t like the book: it’s that he rejects the dogmatic imposition of the Five Essentials on casters by people like us. He adds, “I wish the Five Essentials had never been invented.”

If you think this isn’t really a problem, a CBOG told me with astonishment that he knows a CI who begins every beginner class with a 45-minute discussion of the Five Essentials. In addition, an Examiner told me that he doesn’t really care what else CI candidates do on Task 16 – teaching the pickup/laydown – so long as they talk about the Five Essentials. Recall that this task is geared toward teaching beginners. But another CBOG told me recently that Examiners think it’s inappropriate to teach the Five Essentials to beginners. Clearly, there is an inconsistency here, and it is not trivial. This begs the question: if the Five Essentials aren’t appropriate to teach to a beginner, why are they appropriate for people who can already cast?

At their best, they are a software program that runs in the background. Just like the Six-Step Method, they silently inform our teaching without becoming audible to our students. The most powerful teaching is that in which we talk the least.

Bill Gammel and I first met on a street corner in Livingston, Montana, in, I think, 1996. We were both attending what the FFF then called the “Conclave.” I was a newly minted CBOG and Bill was a year away from joining the Board. We did some casting together, and he told me about the pamphlet he had written with his father, Jay. Bill’s casting was amazing in that he could imitate The Great Ones.

In the space of perhaps a minute, he cast the stylistic differences between Joan Wulff and Lefty Kreh. I think he also modeled the subtle differences between Jim Green and Mel Krieger. It was a tour-de-force of casting. Bill was not just passionate about casting, but also about teaching. He spoke of all the time that he and his father had spent filming the greats, analyzing their footage and then mimicking them. They may have been the first fly-casting film-rats, as we now see in the National Football League and other major sports.

Bill told me once that he teaches his beginner students to cast first and, once they are making fishable casts, he teaches them the Five Essentials. (He now teaches them in a different order and manner from how they were originally written.) If you read the 2nd half of Bill and Jay’s book – start with the last sentence on p.11, beyond the part about the Five Essentials – you’ll see that it refers only parenthetically to the Essentials, and it is an excellent casting book. It’s very simple, and it is a paragon of straight-forward instruction. You’ll see that once the Gammels get the theory off their chests and decide to teach their readers how to actually make the casts, they do it directly, simply
and wonderfully. That’s the part of the Gammels’ legacy that most deserves to be shared with beginners.

The author thanks CBOG-E Bill Gammel, MCI’s Sekhar Bahadur and Craig Buckbee and CBOG Jim Sommercorn for their assistance with this article. The conclusions are the author’s alone. Macauley Lord is an Emeritus member of the Casting Board of Governors and a former editor of The Loop. He received the Lifetime Achievement Award in Casting Instruction in 2011.

1). https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/The Loop/2016.SUMMER.LOOP.pdf?ver=2016-07-26-174814-000

2). Jim Green was a founding CBOG Member, the Fenwick rod designer, and World Casting Champion at age 17.

3). As of this writing, Chris Korich has coached 15-year-old Maxine McCormick to her two world championships in accuracy-casting. In competition, she has beaten both Chris and Steve Rajeff.

4).The Casting Board of Governors’ Jay Gammel Award recognizes individuals who have developed instructional materials that advanced fly casting instruction whether or not they are an FFI member.

 
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jaybeegee

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I watched videos just the other day on the double haul featuring Peter Kutzer of Orvis and Simon Gawesworth of Rio among others. It’s about time I got to grips with the dh and I thought both these blokes broke it down very well.
B
 

Rhithrogena

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I watched videos just the other day on the double haul featuring Peter Kutzer of Orvis and Simon Gawesworth of Rio among others. It’s about time I got to grips with the dh and I thought both these blokes broke it down very well.
B
The advice from SG to use a shooting head with nylon backing is great. You will really progress quickly. This was the standard method for teaching D/H at his Dad's (later Simon's) school in Devon.
 

Rhithrogena

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The advice from SG to use a shooting head with nylon backing is great. You will really progress quickly. This was the standard method for teaching D/H at his Dad's (later Simon's) school in Devon.
From memory we used standard trout 9' 5wt rods with about 30' of 6 or 7wt line attached to that lovely Golden Stren nylon as backing ~20lbs
 

ohanzee

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Second Peter Hayes, brilliant communicator of all things casting.
 

Elwyman

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Simon Gawesworth produced some great casting videos for Rio, certainly helped me get to grips with DH casting.
The Orvis chap is pretty good too.
 

ohanzee

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I was surprised to see how lacking in content both of the UK Instructor’s Associations are.

The bit you don't see perhaps is how active they are at events, probably because they tend to be for their members/instructors, they are their events, for them, bit like a teachers convention, but what they do most is cast, and talk about..casting, these resources are not open to learners generally because learners are considered best taught by instructors.

Having been to a few I always thought it would be useful to hold the same event but invite learners to come and learn for a small fee, everything is there to provide that and it would let people meet instructors and see what they do or can provide.
 

Tangled

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The bit you don't see perhaps is how active they are at events, probably because they tend to be for their members/instructors, they are their events, for them, bit like a teachers convention, but what they do most is cast, and talk about..casting, these resources are not open to learners generally because learners are considered best taught by instructors.
Sure, but why not do both?
Having been to a few I always thought it would be useful to hold the same event but invite learners to come and learn for a small fee, everything is there to provide that and it would let people meet instructors and see what they do or can provide.
My first guess is that they are just too small and maybe too self-obsessed to broaden their reach. And why two tiny organisations?
 

Rhithrogena

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Like hitting a golf ball, serving at tennis, throwing a javelin, or countless other sporting actions, professional coaching will always pay dividends in flycasting.
So if you haven't had a lesson, why not?
The usual answer is "I can can cast fine, thank you!" when in reality we could all do with some coaching - even the casting instructors amongst us.
I had a long lay-off from regular flyfishing and it has taken 18 months of at least weekly casting (not including fishing sessions) to get back to somewhere near where I was in my 20's. I am having fun learning over with my wrong hand as well. There is always something to learn...
 

ohanzee

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Sure, but why not do both?

My first guess is that they are just too small and maybe too self-obsessed to broaden their reach. And why two tiny organisations?

Both as in for instructors and general public? it could be, they are two quite separate things but I see no reason they why they could not be structured for both at the same event.

They are small organisations but have UK reach, fly fishing instruction is not a big business, why 2? there are actually more, SGAIC(Scottish Game Angling Cert) is the Scottish branch of AAPGAI and FFF(Fly Fishers Federation) are two more, they all provide a technical casting exam and certification, then you have sports coaching qualifications that also encompass fly fishing, why they have never sought to amalgamate under one body is unknown to me.
 

ohanzee

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Like hitting a golf ball, serving at tennis, throwing a javelin, or countless other sporting actions, professional coaching will always pay dividends in flycasting.
So if you haven't had a lesson, why not?
The usual answer is "I can can cast fine, thank you!" when in reality we could all do with some coaching - even the casting instructors amongst us.

Casting instructors are the most coached and driven to improve casters, I think it's just because they are used to it and know who and where to go to do it, also they identify more precisely what they need and know when they need someone to look at it.
It is a different interaction though from teaching a beginner, way more focus and a lot more swearing :)
 

Tangled

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Both as in for instructors and general public?
I mean why not do what they do now AND have good websites with lots of instructional videos. They look very self-absorbed to me.
 
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ohanzee

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I mean why not do what they do now AND have good websites with lots of instructional videos. They look very set-absorbed to me.

You won't get to see what members of organisations see, it's not a public resource.
 

Tangled

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You won't get to see what members of organisations see, it's not a public resource.
Why not if you want to widen the membership? The US guys do. And, as I said, there's nothing there if you're a member either. It looks pretty impoverished.
 

ohanzee

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Why not if you want to widen the membership? The US guys do. And, as I said, there's nothing there if you're a member either. It looks pretty impoverished.

There is something you seem to be missing, casting organisations are not there for you, it's a business, they support their members via CPD, events, disclosure, qualification, insurance, first aid, child protection, etc, the website gives you the information you need to contact one as a customer, this is the best way to learn.

I just spent more than a year trying to teach online, vids, online meetings, feedback, all sorts with every conceivable technological means, as far as learning something physical goes it gives you very little of what you can learn from a human doing it in front of you then physically doing it.
 
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Whinging pom

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Why not if you want to widen the membership? The US guys do. And, as I said, there's nothing there if you're a member either. It looks pretty impoverished.
Because I guess if you look at those videos they are thinly veiled adverts for rod companies or line manufacturers . You want to cast like Joan wulff you follow her video and do what she does use a green stick! Same with Orvis guy. The Rio line etc. Loop are huge at this sort of promotion. The technical stuff they’re presenting is secondary it’s Product placement. It’s not public resource it’s business and advertising.
Watch on line videos of marina what’s-her-name casting like a goddess with an Orvis Helios 3 or similar Orvis product .
I don’t know too many casting instructors I have to admit but they don’t have that kind of sponsorship that makes it worth making their skills at instruction free on line. Nor is it a great business.
Hardys or greys don’t seem to be paying British instructors to do the same service as the US companies do , but maybe I haven’t explored enough.
 
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Tangled

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There is something you seem to be missing, casting organisations are not there for you, it's a business, they support their members via CPD, events, disclosure, qualification, insurance, first aid, child protection, etc, the website gives you the information you need to contact one as a customer, this is the best way to learn.

Casting organisations train instructors so that they can teach people to cast. If I was running something like that my website would have a pile of public facing stuff to attract both trainers and the public.

But what's even odder, there's nothing on the sites (GAIA at least) for the trainers themselves.

I just spent more than a year trying to teach online, vids, online meetings, feedback, all sorts with every conceivable technological means, as far as learning something physical goes it gives you very little of what you can learn from a human doing it in front of you then physically doing it.

Training material is not a substitute for actually doing it, but it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't help.
 
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