Understanding Casting

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ACW

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Some folks are great casters not all of those can teach well .
I did a Falkus 5 day speycasting course many years ago ,had a great time met a few folk I still talk to some 30 years later ,yes I was about able to do the standard cast ,but hey 5 days !
Mick Bloke Bell had my son casting the single and double spey after some 2 hours.
Wanting a refresher course on redirected roll casts I attended an afternoon with a well known caster who spent more time slagging Falkus than getting my casting better nothing about that session is/or was memorable .
The best teacher of single handers I have seen was Karl aka Berlin of this board a decade or more ago ,with group sessions his breif one to ones were all relevant to the individual caster ,truly a great communicator .
Oh yes for those that want to improve sexyloops is a great resource ,though I get bogged down by much of the teccy stuff !
 

Tangled

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Tangled, there's a huge supposition there. Do you really think that Forum Admin are able to exercise judgement about whether you've answered 95% of when you know, you think, you've constructed a comprehensive understanding of casting, they will be confidently able to 'stickie it like the other understandings'?
I'm not asking them to exercise judgement. I'll ask them to stickie it when I feel comfortable with it. At that point we'll have thrashed the thing to death and it will be what it is.
 

Tangled

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As well as adding Bill Gammel's five essentials videos to post #1 I've also added Lefty Kreh's four principles for balance. At post #2 I've posted the Loop's article on:

HOW “THE FIVE ESSENTIALS” BECAME DOGMA

Just for historical interest (and, I suppose, also to show just how embedded the ideas have become.)
 

ohanzee

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I'd like to add a warm affirmation, as someone who teaches what is often similarly assumed to be an abstract or subjective subject as a day job, with all the various teaching qualifications etc. when I first came to casting instruction I was surprised by the quality of teaching, and perhaps ironically the strange lack of teaching theory as I know it.
In my job we dispensed with 'learning styles' a long time ago for the realisation that everyone uses a varying mix of all of them, and so on, yet this was coming up in casting instruction, this is not a criticism, it was casting instructors searching for ways to improve their practice, and at times comparing classroom practice with possibly 30 students, with one to one individual tutoring, they are hugely different in approach.
What struck me at the time was how hard instructors tried to improve their individual communication, how intense one to one is in terms of teaching, and how good many were at doing it when they often felt they fell short.

I still see parallels drawn that don't fit, some in this thread, what needs to be appreciated is that casting instruction is it's own individual form of learning/teaching and is a far closer relationship between instructor and learner, anyone reading this thread should be aware that instructors are as well thought through, trained and equipped to get you to the level you want as a professional teacher in any other subject, and more so when you have one to one attention.

I feel words like 'Dogma' and questioning some of the terms used needed put into perspective.
 

geenomad

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Let's move beyond the 5 essentials. If I think back over my fly casting journey there have been a few ahaa moments or insights which were determinative and remain so. Others might want to share some of theirs. I will save the grasp of the full implications of Newton's Second Law until later...maybe. :)

What I would lead with is understanding that effort is the enemy of control. Control is based on sound technique, it's also the objective of technique development and it's what we need to make accurate presentations at pretty much any distance - short, medium or long. Before I took up fly casting I had played quite a few different sports and from quite a young age I could throw things accurately at considerable distance. All that throwing confirmed an instinctive understanding that going longer meant going harder. Fly casting doesn't work that way - in multiple senses. What it's about is doing more with less.

Cheers
Mark
 

Tangled

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What it's about is doing more with less.
I've had lots of 'aha' moments for casting, almost all of them in the last 5 years as my fishing changed from half a dozen times a year if I was lucky to pretty much whenever I liked and I started thinking a lot about it.

But like your aha! I found one of them when a guide I was with couldn't take it anymore and got me out of the water and told me to double-haul 45' of line as slowly as I possibly could without touching the ground front or back. Bizarrely (to me at the time), everything got better; timing, loops, stops and most importantly, feel. We underestimate feel and probably can't easily teach it.

I don't want to start another lever/spring war but we DO load a rod; we apply force to a flexible beam (rod) and that's load. And because we've applied force, we feel that in our arm. Feeling that tension tells you that everything is working correctly and that your timing is right, you've managed to apply force and with practice you get to do it in the right place. Not so easily felt in short, soft casts but it's still there.

I took a guy fishing that had never held any sort of rod in his hand before, but he got the basic action pretty quickly. I can still see his grin when he accidentally hit it bang on and it flew out. "You can feel it when it works properly" he said. Aha!
 

karlsson

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I don't want to start another lever/spring war but we DO load a rod; we apply force to a flexible beam (rod) and that's load. And because we've applied force, we feel that in our arm. Feeling that tension tells you that everything is working correctly and that your timing is right, you've managed to apply force and with practice you get to do it in the right place. Not so easily felt in short, soft casts but it's still there.
Do we load a rod, or do we put it under load?

What do we feel in our arm, as we are continually applying a force to the handle of the rod?

How do you feel that the tension is right? Can the tension be the same regardless of the line outside the tip is relativly straight or has plenty of slack?

What is the right timing?

Why is it easier felt on longer casts than short ones?

Are you sure you know what you're feeling is right?

Cheers
Lasse
 

Tangled

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Do we load a rod, or do we put it under load?
I'm not seeing the difference.
What do we feel in our arm, as we are continually applying a force to the handle of the rod?
We're feeling Newton's 3rd Law - action and reaction are equal and opposite.
How do you feel that the tension is right? Can the tension be the same regardless of the line outside the tip is relativly straight or has plenty of slack?

What is the right timing?

Why is it easier felt on longer casts than short ones?

Are you sure you know what you're feeling is right?
Ah, well all that is the result of an awful lot of training and practice - that's developing 'the feel' of a cast.
 

Rhithrogena

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When we throw a stone are we 'loading' our arm? The rod is just an extension of our arm. So we throw the line, surely?: it's still our arm doing the throwing.
This is getting complicated.....
 

ohanzee

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When we throw a stone are we 'loading' our arm? The rod is just an extension of our arm. So we throw the line, surely?: it's still our arm doing the throwing.
This is getting complicated.....

I vote we bin the 'load' discussion, yes we load the rod and the rod bends when we load it, but it is of zero use in learning casting, no spring, no need to have it as a concept.
 

Tangled

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I vote we bin the 'load' discussion, yes we load the rod and the rod bends when we load it, but it is of zero use in learning casting, no spring, no need to have it as a concept.

The spring versus lever arguments of yesteryear have totally polluted discussions about what what "load" means.

There are both mechanical advantage (lever) and stored potential energy (spring) effects in a cast. I think we are pretty clear that by far the most important is leverage but spring has a material effect, particularly at distance. So we can certainly call that argument settled.

But we mustn't throw the baby away with the bathwater. We do apply load (force) to a rod when we cast it.

"Load:: the forces to which a given object is subjected"

There's a knee-jerk reaction to using the word "load" here because the skin hasn't yet fully healed over and when someone mentions it you get the "someone's said something wrong, he means spring" reaction.
 

Rhithrogena

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When we throw a stone the muscles in our arm are loading the long bones it it, so yes.

I'm pretty sure we haven't seen anything yet!
I have always got confused with the physics, it always come down to the physics, and I come a cropper here. I want an idiots guide to the physics, using 'o' level terminology
 

ohanzee

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The spring versus lever arguments of yesteryear have totally polluted discussions about what what "load" means.

There are both mechanical advantage (lever) and stored potential energy (spring) effects in a cast. I think we are pretty clear that by far the most important is leverage but spring has a material effect, particularly at distance. So we can certainly call that argument settled.

But we mustn't throw the baby away with the bathwater. We do apply load (force) to a rod when we cast it.

"Load:: the forces to which a given object is subjected"

There's a knee-jerk reaction to using the word "load" here because the skin hasn't yet fully healed over and when someone mentions it you get the "someone's said something wrong, he means spring" reaction.

Forget it, stop driving up cul de sacs and focus on things that matter.

You touched on 'feel' and seem bemused at the concept of starting there, I find that bizarre, it would be my start point with any beginner.
 
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