Understanding Casting

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ohanzee

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The point of the post is to show that people are routinely confusing crossing loops with tailing loops.

eg, as requested, I googled crossing loops and the first result was the from Midcurrent

"Tailing loops are the bane of both novice and experienced casters, and they can almost all be traced to problems with the timing of the casting stroke. A tailing loop is one where the front of the fly line and the leader cross below the plane of the cast as the forward cast rolls out, often causing a tangle in the line or a wind knot in the tippet or leader."

To be a tailing loop the lines cross twice.

So, is a crossed loop a fault?

(I'm defining 'fault' as unintentional and detramental)

A crossed loop is where the line crosses once(twice is a tail) often mistaken for a tailing loop, a mistake I made myself once, it's not a fault necessarily, but it can be a problem if it's at the end of a cast.

I suspect your 'closed loop' is the same thing, correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't really get the point of the vid.
 

Tangled

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A crossed loop is where the line crosses once(twice is a tail) often mistaken for a tailing loop, a mistake I made myself once, it's not a fault necessarily, but it can be a problem if it's at the end of a cast.

I suspect your 'closed loop' is the same thing, correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't really get the point of the vid.

The video is showing that crossed/closed loops (I think they're the same thing) are routinely confused by experts and amateurs alike.

The real question is does it matter? I have an opinion but I'd like more discussion before I get naked.
 

ohanzee

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The video is showing that crossed/closed loops (I think they're the same thing) are routinely confused by experts and amateurs alike.

The real question is does it matter? I have an opinion but I'd like more discussion before I get naked.

Does it matter to who? do you have a tailing problem?
 

ohanzee

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You don't want me to be personal but it's you that is seemingly needing to work stuff out, I could maybe help fix a tail but if there is no problem or question to solve....
 

Tangled

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You don't want me to be personal
I don't want you to be personal because none of this is anything to do with me - it's about casting and loop formation. It's thinking about things that are very practical in a theoretical way in an attempt to understand what is going on.
but it's you that is seemingly needing to work stuff out, I could maybe help fix a tail but if there is no problem or question to solve....
The question I've posed is what is the difference between a tailing loop and a crossed/closed loop and does it matter? Also does it matter that these two seemingly different things are routinely confused even by experts?

As a starter.
 

LukeNZ

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The point of the post is to show that people are routinely confusing crossing loops with tailing loops.

eg, as requested, I googled crossing loops and the first result was the from Midcurrent

"Tailing loops are the bane of both novice and experienced casters, and they can almost all be traced to problems with the timing of the casting stroke. A tailing loop is one where the front of the fly line and the leader cross below the plane of the cast as the forward cast rolls out, often causing a tangle in the line or a wind knot in the tippet or leader."

To be a tailing loop the lines cross twice.

So, is a crossed loop a fault?

(I'm defining 'fault' as unintentional and detramental)
Its just a casting fault. If it happens consistently, then the caster is aerialising too much line for his ability.

Shorten up, and practice more. Extending distance as profficiency/skill grows.

It occadionslly happens to skilled casters where wind interferes with aerialised line tension.

Surely, most folks have experienced all of this?

🙃
 

aenoon

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Its just a casting fault. If it happens consistently, then the caster is aerialising too much line for his ability.

Shorten up, and practice more. Extending distance as profficiency/skill grows.

It occadionslly happens to skilled casters where wind interferes with aerialised line tension.

Surely, most folks have experienced all of this?

🙃
All will have experienced same, and not only through wind.
I call it "a lazy cast" when it happens, and several on here have heard me say same!
 

LukeNZ

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All will have experienced same, and not only through wind.
I call it "a lazy cast" when it happens, and several on here have heard me say same!
Exactly.

It doesn't really take too much experience, or knowledge to understand.

Most beginners would quickly figure out it all turns to tailing loops, wind knots, custard etc,. when trying to run before they can walk.

If it concerns them enough, they will practice until they can consistently achieve what it is that pleases them - would seem basic, and logical to the practically minded, one would imagine?

🙃
 

taffy1

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An angler in any sort of difficult situation to present a cas,t assesses his predicament, & will present his offering to suit his needs to present the offering to a possible feeding fish
 

geenomad

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Folks the posts on tailing loops above are interesting but largely inaccurate. The short answer is that we can avoid tailing loops by accelerating smoothly and by having straight tracking.

For those interest in a more detail account of what commonly causes a tail the causal sequence in most instances goes like this.

1) Lumpy acceleration of the rod produces a dip and rise of the rod tip (concave tip path) which:
2) Produces a transverse wave ie a wave travelling at right angles to the direction in which the line is travelling.
3) This wave starts in the rod leg but continues to travel down the fly leg after loop formation.
4) Double crossing is because the transverse has two "arms".
5) To produce a cast destroying and knot tying event it is necessary for the fly leg with the transverse wave in it to collide with the rod leg.

You can see the wave and how it sometimes ties knots in this vid. I'm sure there are other vids around which show the caster and the lumpy acceleration as well as the tails.

As explained in an earlier post, many of the so-called "causes" of tails are situations likely to produce lumpy acceleration eg creeping.

So we can cause tails and tie knots in various situations and we can also get away with it others such as when the two legs don't collide - maybe tracking ain't that bad or maybe a wind blowing across the caster from the off shoulder to the casting shoulder keeps them apart.

The knots formed are initially loose to begin with and then tighten during a pick up or the even the next cast.

Cheers
Mark
 

PaulD

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This is a mindmap which I use as a teaching aid when mentoring . . .

Causes of Tailing Loops.png


The map identifies 5 common causes, they're not the sole causes.

As detailed in the definition, a 'true' tailing loop is a transverse wave -a wave in the fly leg which crosses the rod leg twice -in a transverse wave the line vibrates at right angles to the direction of its propagation.

tailingloop.jpg
 

Tangled

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Tailing loops are one source of loop collision, the other appears to be a simple crossed loop. The video suggests that we confuse them.

Crossed loops can be caused simply by gravity; a longish line out behind with a heavyish lure will sag and come up under the forward leg. If the legs collide we get what we diagnose as a tailing loop, but its fix might need a different action.
 
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PaulD

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Many American sites often show a crossed loop and describe it as a tailing loop, as you describe above, a crossed loop is not a transverse wave and even if a crossed loop collides with the fly leg, it is not a tailing loop, even if the result looks similar.

Ornithologists wouldn't call both of these blackbirds . . .

blackbird.jpg

jackdaw.jpg
 

James9118

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Many years ago on this forum I got ridiculed for suggesting a 'crossed loop' (or one of the many terms used to describe it), was totally different from a tailing loop. It seems we might be making some progress (I was told I couldn't cast for sh*t at the time and I'd be dangerous to share a boat with).

A couple of things to note about a 'crossed loops' is that they are extremely common with people who can cast tight(ish) loops and this, as mentioned above, is because gravity causes the line to drop before the next casting stroke (it's hidden in fat loop because...well they're fat). Also, crossing is very much dependant on the physical position of the observer - if two people look at at cast from slightly different angles, one might report they saw crossing whilst the other might not.

On the subject of tails, there are some interesting observations on when they occur that can give you information regarding when the fault (the deviation in the path of the rod tip leading to a formation of a transverse wave in the fly line) was performed in the casting stroke. When you understand, and can control this, it's possible to place the 'tail' (i.e. the point where the transverse wave collides with the rod leg) anywhere from just outside of the rod tip up to 'in the leader'.

With regard to line trajectories, I'd look up Bernd Ziesche's description over on Sexyloops (Bernd's dangly bits (BDB) as I describe it). He perfectly explains some of the less obvious things that are evident in some casts.

James
 

Tangled

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Many years ago on this forum I got ridiculed for suggesting [... anything at all ...]
Plus ça change
With regard to line trajectories, I'd look up Bernd Ziesche's description over on Sexyloops (Bernd's dangly bits (BDB) as I describe it). He perfectly explains some of the less obvious things that are evident in some casts.

James
Don't have a link do you?
 

James9118

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Plus ça change

Don't have a link do you?
 

Tangled

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Here's a guy throwing closed loops (not tailing loops) by breaking the 180 rule
(It's tough to see)

 

icejohn

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Here's a guy throwing closed loops (not tailing loops) by breaking the 180 rule
(It's tough to see)


I would say the chap is using the length of the rod and the 45 degree angle to keep the "loop" of line hitting each other.

A full length cast relies on a loop of some sort to stop tangles that would be more visible than this vid in what appears to be a short cast.
 

LukeNZ

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Too much analysis and not enough doing...

Does anyone truly suffer taling loops for more than 5 casts out of 100 without being able to figure out how to modify their stroke to reduce that number?

After all something had to change from the 95% norm. so to the caster he should be able to notice/feel /know what changed, or is different, either in his stroke, or tackle, or environment?

🙃
 
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