Understanding Casting

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James9118

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Does anyone truly suffer taling loops for more than 5 casts out of 100 without being able to figure out how to modify their stroke to reduce that number?
I watched more than one angler throw near on 100% tails. Quite often tails only collide in the leader, so perhaps the anglers in question weren't seeing them - they must of been wondering why they knot up their leader so badly mind you.
 

Tangled

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The orthodox view of tailing is, as has been said, a misapplication of power causing a concave wave in the line. The explanation is that the rod has flexed and shortened during the power stroke creating the concave rod tip path.

I'm struggling though to understand how that occurs in real life with average anglers.

To create a concavity large enough to loop - rather than just cause a tailing tendency in the line - the rod needs to shorten significantly and the loop being cast needs to be tight. The big loops that ordinary anglers cast aren't going to cross and how much shortening does the average caster manage on the rod during a normal cast? I'd feel both those situations are fairly hard to produce for an average angler.

Then all the rod actions I see demonstrating the creation of tailing loops seem to be extreme. Very short casting arcs hit deliberately high and very fast and punchy. They're not normal casting attempts. I can cast tailing loops - or at least loops that collide at will, but only by creating that kind of artificial situation. The colliding loops I occasionally get and see others get while fishing are not made that way.

Perhaps something else is going on when ordinary anglers get line collisions?
 

PaulD

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The orthodox view of tailing is, as has been said, a misapplication of power causing a concave wave in the line. The explanation is that the rod has flexed and shortened during the power stroke creating the concave rod tip path.

I'm struggling though to understand how that occurs in real life with average anglers.



Perhaps something else is going on when ordinary anglers get line collisions?

Tailing loops are not common amongst 'average' casters, tailing loops are often an occurrence among intermediate / improving casters who are seeking the ability to cast tighter loops and extend the length of line they are able to carry.

Many less able casters cast wide, open loops because they cannot generate or maintain sufficient line speed or create effective stops or maintain the 180 degree tracking path - they are missing varying aspects of the 5Es. They will often achieve crossed loops - leader length beyond their ability to cast, weighted flies or teams of flies poorly distanced / ordered on the leader.
 

James9118

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To create a concavity large enough to loop - the rod needs to shorten significantly and the loop being cast needs to be tight.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself there - where's your evidence that the rod needs to 'shorten significantly'? From my observations the deviation in rod tip path is very subtle and hard to spot.

I agree there is a difference between the 'normal' tailing loop you see from intermediate casters and those produced by good casters who are demonstrating tails by thumping the force in.

Most often (again from my observations) the unintentional tails arise from the position the rod tip is in when the casting stroke is started (although the actual cause of the tail is still incorrect force application). If the rod is pointing down the line somewhat then the rod tip is less prone to bouncing about when the force is applied for the next stroke. Conversely if the rod is at 90 degrees to the line then the tip is much more sensitive to deviation. Often unintentional creep puts the rod into this sort of position, whereas drift will often be used to position the rod more 'in-line' with the unfurling loop.

When you see a tail that appears very late in the cast, i.e. in the leader or near to it, the actual fault in the force application has occurred very early in the casting stroke, i.e. right at the start when the rod tip is sensitive to bouncing around especially if its at an angle to the line as described above.

This 'subtle' tail is quite hard to demonstrate on purpose. As such, when asked to show a tailing loop, instructors etc. will tend to thump the force mid to late in the cast in order to produce a clear and obvious casting fault. This 'demo' tail will show up in the middle of the line.

James
 

ohanzee

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To create a concavity large enough to loop - rather than just cause a tailing tendency in the line - the rod needs to shorten significantly and the loop being cast needs to be tight.

The rod 'shortening' by bending is the concavity of the tip path, and it doesn't need to be as significant to show up in a tight loop as an open one.

If this was your 'orthodox' view what was the unorthodox view?
 

Whinging pom

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, tailing loops are often an occurrence among intermediate / improving casters who are seeking the ability to cast tighter loops
Whoppee I’ll look on them with new fondness then and a badge of honour… I took them as the dire effect of git casting worse than average … get in!

When I was struggling with them in a lesson this week I was told that in my case my acceleration at the beginning of my forward stroke was excessive. I struggled to correct this so a bit of drift was added to the back cast. That action slowing down the stroke seemed to clear it up !
Nice to see this thread trundling along. Learning lots thanks to all

edit : if anyone read this earlier I actually wrote “Git casting worse…” “Clit casting….” was entirely a spell check construct and not a Freudian slip !
 
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PaulD

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Whoppee I’ll look on them with new fondness then and a badge of honour… I took them as the dire effect of git casting worse than average … get in!

When I was struggling with them in a lesson this week I was told that in my case my acceleration at the beginning of my forward stroke was excessive.
Staaaart slooooow - F*N*SH FAST!
 

Tangled

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The rod 'shortening' by bending is the concavity of the tip path,
I think we all understand that Alan.
and it doesn't need to be as significant to show up in a tight loop as an open one.
How much do you think a standard medium fast rod shortens when performing an average cast? ie not a 120' distance casting effort, something less than half that? I don't know the answer but my guess would be about 9" or so? And that's assuming the casting arc doesn't widen at all.

I don't know many people that can cast a 9" loop do you? (I say that because to make a tail, the concavity in the rod path needs to be greater than the size of the loop (distance between rod leg and fly leg.)

I'm musing that it seems unlikely that the average caster, casting pretty wide loops, let's say minimum of 4' or so? Is going to be able to create a 5' rod tip dip and consequent 5' tail.
 

ohanzee

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Whoppee I’ll look on them with new fondness then and a badge of honour… I took them as the dire effect of git casting worse than average … get in!

When I was struggling with them in a lesson this week I was told that in my case my acceleration at the beginning of my forward stroke was excessive. I struggled to correct this so a bit of drift was added to the back cast. That action slowing down the stroke seemed to clear it up !
Nice to see this thread trundling along. Learning lots thanks to all

edit : if anyone read this earlier I actually wrote “Git casting worse…” “Clit casting….” was entirely a spell check construct and not a Freudian slip !

It's true, tailing loops start appearing when you want to cast that bit further, try that bit harder, hit it that bit more eagerly, with the same length of stroke, sometimes just lengthening the stroke a bit is enough.
 

ohanzee

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I think we all understand that Alan.

How much do you think a standard medium fast rod shortens when performing an average cast? ie not a 120' distance casting effort, something less than half that? I don't know the answer but my guess would be about 9" or so? And that's assuming the casting arc doesn't widen at all.

I don't know many people that can cast a 9" loop do you? (I say that because to make a tail, the concavity in the rod path needs to be greater than the size of the loop (distance between rod leg and fly leg.)

I'm musing that it seems unlikely that the average caster, casting pretty wide loops, let's say minimum of 4' or so? Is going to be able to create a 5' rod tip dip and consequent 5' tail.

I know lots of people that can cast a 9'' loop, a few here in fact including myself, not that it matters here, tailing loops don't need that narrow a loop...obviously.

Whichever way you want to measure it tailing loops do exist, so the rod tip is either dipping enough to cause it or we have another Tangled mystery on our hands.

Do you think 9'' of dip or concavity stays 9'' all the way through the cast?
 

Tangled

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Many less able casters cast wide, open loops because they cannot generate or maintain sufficient line speed or create effective stops or maintain the 180 degree tracking path - they are missing varying aspects of the 5Es. They will often achieve crossed loops - leader length beyond their ability to cast, weighted flies or teams of flies poorly distanced / ordered on the leader.
I think this is partly what I'm getting at, or trying to get towards. We call a lot of collisions tailing loops that aren't. I'm interested in how those other collisions are formed.

They're all fixed by correcting one of the 5Es, but if causation is different the focus of the fix should be different too.
 

Tangled

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Whichever way you want to measure it tailing loops do exist,
No one here is doubting it.
so the rod tip is either dipping enough to cause it or we have another Tangled mystery on our hands.
You haven't actually provided an answer to my question have you?
Do you think 9'' of dip or concavity stays 9'' all the way through the cast?
Well that is a good point. I don't know, do you? If there was an amplification of the looping tendency that was capable of turning it into a tail that would be a great explanation. Does it exist?
 

PaulD

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What collisions are not tailing loops?
This is a tailing loop . . .
tailingloop.jpg

This is a closed loop . . .
closed loop.gif
 

Tangled

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I think you're getting ahead of yourself there - where's your evidence that the rod needs to 'shorten significantly'? From my observations the deviation in rod tip path is very subtle and hard to spot.
I've tried to explain my thinking in post #328.

I agree that the rod tip path must, in practice be subtle, probable quite a shallow dip in the rod tip path. So I'm wondering how that short dip manages to pass over the other leg of the line twice, when the gap between the legs is measured in feet. Has the subtle wave been amplified?
 

Tangled

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Indeed, but the bottom one is what you would see from many a longer cast where the bottom leg is dropping with gravity, and the top leg is climbing from having dropped on the back cast.

All of which has been said.
 

ohanzee

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I agree that the rod tip path must, in practice be subtle, probable quite a shallow dip in the rod tip path. So I'm wondering how that short dip manages to pass over the other leg of the line twice, when the gap between the legs is measured in feet. Has the subtle wave been amplified?

I'm not sure it matters much, we know it does, what matters is how to avoid it happening.
 

Tangled

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I'm not sure it matters much, we know it does, what matters is how to avoid it happening.

How can we fix it if we don't know how it happens?

And in any case aren't you interested at all in understanding how this sh1t works? If not you're in the wrong thread.
 
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