Understanding Casting

Status
Not open for further replies.

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
Not sure if I understand this. Early rotation generally gives a wider loop. This brings us into the rather tangled subject (pun intended...) of is a tail a tail if the rod and fly leg don't cross each over in 2 places? ANSWER:- It is! ...sometimes referred to as a 'tailing tendency'. This is a very common misunderstanding in casting circles at all levels. When I had my very first casting lesson quite a few years ago, the instructor told me that I could avoid tails by dropping the rod-tip at the end of the cast therefore opening the loop and stopping the rod and fly leg colliding. This of course is bunkum. Once a tail is formed you can't un-form it but you can mitigate against rod and fly legs colliding. It's still a tail though...

It is yes, adapting the haul is mitigation, and it is generally just a crossed or closed loop rather than a tail, I typed that in error.

When this happens mid presentation what you need is to firstly stop the fly from catching the leader at the end of the cast, and get the leader to straighten to land straight, it's a momentary fix for a mistake, mistake hopefully removed in the next cast.

What would be useful is, rather than just the visual difference between a tail and a cross, but the different causes of each, and the different cures to each, for me just thinking about it, if you take out the normal longer cast tendency of the line to cross due to an upward trajectory and gravity, the causes and fixes of crossing and tailing are the same, smoother power application over a longer stroke and so on.
 

LukeNZ

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
3,891
Location
Hawke’s Bay, NZ
Agreed, the concave wave in the line retains roughly the same dimensions that the rod tip put in it. The video shows this.
James seems to think otherwise, but maybe I'm misrepresenting him.
....your agreement with profficient casters, on any point is largely irrelevant, as it still doesn't qualify or calibrate your understanding.

You come accross in a similar way to an art critic, A prolific self extolling expert on paint strokes - but couldn't paint a portrait to save himself..?!?

🙃
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
....why are you disagreeing with people who actually and demonstrably know what they are doing?

🙃
Because what I'm seeing does not coincide with what is being said to explain it.

But I'm highly unlikely to be correct and it should be easy to prove me wrong. Nothing so far, but it must be out there somewhere. All I want are facts and evidence.

(btw, you should know by now that I couldn't care less how personally spiteful you behave, it just seems a total waste of effort.)
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
Because what I'm seeing does not coincide with what is being said to explain it.

You questioned the SLP, I presume you now understand when it applies and that it is a necessary thing?
Then you seemed to suggest we cast with a concave tip path or something, do you now agree that a concave tip path gives you tailing loops? which is a dip below SLP?
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
You questioned the SLP,
I did not. I questioned the idea that the SLP was literally an SLP and it isn't - our casts are shallowly convex with a sharp downward arc at rotation. That's done and dusted and it doesn't mean that the rationale of the SLP is in question.
I presume you now understand when it applies and that it is a necessary thing?
I always knew that it applies and that it is a very necessary thing. I've mentioned this before, you don't read and when you do you put your own interpretation on what is written - and it's always the wrong one.
Then you seemed to suggest we cast with a concave tip path or something,

That "something" would be a convex tip path and we do cast with it. It is literally impossible not to.
do you now agree that a concave tip path gives you tailing loops?
I agree that a concave tip path gives an equivalent sized concavity in the line. That can be seen in the videos.

I'm trying to understand how that relatively small dip - normally called a tailing tendency - can turn into the severe thing that is the tailing loop.

The videos that I've found of what are called tailing loops are artificially created, the tail concavity looks almost irrelevant in them.

So I'm hoping for some real evidence. It must exist, this was done to death years ago, why isn't it spelt out clearly somewhere?
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
The second last clip near the bottom....shows a tail forming.

https://onemorelastcast.net/2017/10/30/tails-of-beauty/#more-2905
That's really interesting, thank you.
My take is that the dip in the rod tip, like most, is right at the beginning of the stroke, the first initial pull being too abrupt, in this case deliberate I believe.

I see it differently. He's broken the SLP sideways. Looks like he's got an angle of about 145 horizontally there.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
My problem is in understanding how the slight tailing dip shown in the "V" shape below turns into that horrible closed (but not tailing loop).

It's another highly artificial cast I'm afraid, he deliberately drags his hand sharply down, then after the far too early stop, he then restarts the cast and moves upwards a few inches. Full video under.

Screenshot 2021-09-19 at 22.05.54.png


 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
That's really interesting, thank you.


I see it differently. He's broken the SLP sideways. Looks like he's got an angle of about 145 horizontally there.

He does track in a curve but tails tend to be vertical, when precisely the rod tip dips to form the tail is the key bit, knowing that lets us not do that, I don't know of any footage that captures this moment, my take is that the dip that creates the wave happens right at the beginning of the forward cast starting to move.
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
My problem is in understanding how the slight tailing dip shown in the "V" shape below turns into that horrible closed (but not tailing loop).

The tail begins as a shallow wave corresponding to the tip at the tip, the wave now has forces in more than one direction, you don't believe it can develop further, I think it does.

I nicked this from Sexyloops, it's very accurate in description, and it serves to show something, this is roughly what we see in bad loops, the fact that we do at what is effectively a late developed stage tells us they don't level out, they stay all the way to the end of the cast, that tells me something.

IMG_1386 (1).jpg
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
The tail begins as a shallow wave corresponding to the tip at the tip,
Fine
the wave now has forces in more than one direction,
Sure
you don't believe it can develop further, I think it does.
It's not a matter of belief, I want to see it actually grow larger and by how much. That should be easy. Then I want to understand how the hell it does it. The up and down movement of the rod tip seems very weak compared to the forward cast. I'm not saying it doesn't happen< I'm asking to see the evidence of it in a real life cast.
I nicked this from Sexyloops, it's very accurate in description, and it serves to show something, this is roughly what we see in bad loops, the fact that we do at what is effectively a late developed stage tells us they don't level out, they stay all the way to the end of the cast, that tells me something.

View attachment 43601

Yes, I've seen that. Love the question mark next to the closed loop. They're not all caused by the same 'fault' are they?
 

LukeNZ

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
3,891
Location
Hawke’s Bay, NZ
Because what I'm seeing does not coincide with what is being said to explain it.

But I'm highly unlikely to be correct and it should be easy to prove me wrong. Nothing so far, but it must be out there somewhere. All I want are facts and evidence.

(btw, you should know by now that I couldn't care less how personally spiteful you behave, it just seems a total waste of effort.)
Not spite - that comment is very alt, to kill opposition to your views?

Rather, just seeing and saying.in a clinical format, which see's expert view dismissed because you prefer yours?

You shouldnt need the confirmation of others if you believe you are right, unless you are second guessing yourself...?

Appologies if you are offended - there is no intent.

🙃
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
I want to see it actually grow larger and by how much. That should be easy.

I'd suggest a camcorder with someone else operating it, it's not easy, you can do a slow mo on the computer when you upload.
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
48,771
They're not all caused by the same 'fault' are they?

Good question, technically no but the causes are multiple so for me it doesn't matter, I treat the cause of the problem and those can be different for the same symptom.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
7,269
I'd suggest a camcorder with someone else operating it, it's not easy, you can do a slow mo on the computer when you upload.

This must have already been done otherwise how do we think we know what's happening?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Top