Understanding Casting

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ohanzee

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This must have already been done otherwise how do we think we know what's happening?

We know what is happening by watching the rod tip and the effect on the loop, with our eyes and someone doing it, we don't all go about filming stuff just for your convenience :D
 

LukeNZ

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I'm not claiming to be right I'm asking to see the evidence that underpins the current models. It must be available.

You can't offend me Luke.
We all cast differently for very many reasons. If normally intelligent and able people simply cant achieve a cast they are happy with after a few seasons of fly fishing, and some off season lawn practice etc; then they definitely need some expert help,

Casting is not at all difficult for people with normal abilities and aptitude. In fact, casting well does not require that much intellect at all

I am sure we all know people that can't spell nimph - that can cast a line as nicely as a university don. and they don't feel any need to ask why - though the don might?

Too much line aerialised without proper management, experience, skill, a gutless, or, too short a rod - and a cast can get quite funky indeed. Knots, tailing loops tangles = lots of swearing...

If it all turns to crape; shorten up. Take a break, have a Snickers bar.

🤪
 
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taffy1

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"Understanding" which cast is required in a particular situation may be a better option. It's not always possible to perform an overhead cast. An angler will assess his situation before deciding which will be the most efficient & effective to present a lure/fly.
 

andygrey

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The tail begins as a shallow wave corresponding to the tip at the tip, the wave now has forces in more than one direction, you don't believe it can develop further, I think it does.

I nicked this from Sexyloops, it's very accurate in description, and it serves to show something, this is roughly what we see in bad loops, the fact that we do at what is effectively a late developed stage tells us they don't level out, they stay all the way to the end of the cast, that tells me something.

View attachment 43601
Hmmm... I have a bit of a problem with the 2nd and 3rd examples here being described as tails. If we accept the definition of a tail as a concave wave in the fly leg - caused by a momentary dip in the rod tip below the SLP during the casting stroke. Only the 1st example exhibits this characteristic. The rod and fly leg crossing at one point is not a tail if the fly leg is straight or convex.
 

ohanzee

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Hmmm... I have a bit of a problem with the 2nd and 3rd examples here being described as tails. If we accept the definition of a tail as a concave wave in the fly leg - caused by a momentary dip in the rod tip below the SLP during the casting stroke. Only the 1st example exhibits this characteristic. The rod and fly leg crossing at one point is not a tail if the fly leg is straight or convex.

Yes agreed, it's from a thread on sexyloops in 2013 where the distinction becomes clearer, perhaps the definitive moment, that drawing is a piece of tailing loop history :)

The top one is a tailing loop, the second a crossing loop now usually called a closed loop, and the third is a good loop affected by gravity, a 'trailing' loop.
 

ohanzee

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The rod and fly leg crossing at one point is not a tail if the fly leg is straight or convex.

The bottom one is a perfectly acceptable cast, the second one a fault, in a closed loop, as with a tail the fly can catch the line/leader as it crosses, the question is what causes it and is it a different cause to a tailing loop? ie. is it also caused by a concave tip path? ...which by definition would define it as a tailing loop.
 

Tangled

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No further progress then. Maybe we can pull this cast apart to get moving again.


The caster says this is a tailing loop - my view is that it isn't.

For a start it's a crossed/closed loop not a tailing loop as normally defined.

The caster says it's been caused by the concavity in the rod tip's path - my view is that it hasn't - the most obvious reason being that there's very little concavity in the rod tip's path, despite the caster's attempts to put one in. (He's right that it's caused by the incorrect application of power, just not the way he's trying to portray it.)

There's a lot of problems with this cast, the first being that he starts the forward cast before the backcast has rolled out. When the forward cast comes into the frame it's already underneath the rod tip. He brings his hand down sharply to help achieve this, stops too early then makes an upward movement. The upward movement looks like it's pushed the fly line leg above the rod leg creating the loop.

What do you see?
 

taffy1

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You cannot "Understand Casting" until all the different disciplines of casting are explained. Not every cast made is an overhead cast. The videos etc. are of a caster in the middle of a field or some such. Not a fishing situation. Not an ideal help is it?
 

PaulD

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No further progress then. Maybe we can pull this cast apart to get moving again.


The caster says this is a tailing loop - my view is that it isn't.

For a start it's a crossed/closed loop not a tailing loop as normally defined.

The caster says it's been caused by the concavity in the rod tip's path - my view is that it hasn't - the most obvious reason being that there's very little concavity in the rod tip's path, despite the caster's attempts to put one in. (He's right that it's caused by the incorrect application of power, just not the way he's trying to portray it.)

There's a lot of problems with this cast, the first being that he starts the forward cast before the backcast has rolled out. When the forward cast comes into the frame it's already underneath the rod tip. He brings his hand down sharply to help achieve this, stops too early then makes an upward movement. The upward movement looks like it's pushed the fly line leg above the rod leg creating the loop.

What do you see?
It is not a tailing loop, it is a rather poor attempt and video of a caster's attempt to create one, with more line outside the rod tip and greater linespeed it might turn into one . . .

The FFI definition of a tailing loop and that which seems to be agreed upon by most qualified fly casting instructors is that a tailing loop sees the line crossing over itself AND back again. i.e twice, it is defined as a transverse wave. in the video there is no transverse wave.
A crossed line is not a tailing loop by definition. Its all sorts of other things. An under slung loop, a tight loop cast out of plane, a loop commonly seen on spey casters - all sorts - but it's not a tailing loop. See below. THIS IS NOT A TAILING LOOP

Not a tailing Loop swift fly fishing
 

andygrey

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The bottom one is a perfectly acceptable cast, the second one a fault, in a closed loop, as with a tail the fly can catch the line/leader as it crosses, the question is what causes it and is it a different cause to a tailing loop? ie. is it also caused by a concave tip path? ...which by definition would define it as a tailing loop.
I see the 2nd one quite a bit with novice casters and suspect that it is caused by a combination of over rotation, early power application followed by a deceleration and no real stop at the end of the stroke. It's a very difficult fault to analyse and break down properly as its normally a result of getting a lot of things wrong! I'm out fishing today so I'll see if I can replicate it.
 

andygrey

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It is not a tailing loop, it is a rather poor attempt and video of a caster's attempt to create one, with more line outside the rod tip and greater linespeed it might turn into one . . .

The FFI definition of a tailing loop and that which seems to be agreed upon by most qualified fly casting instructors is that a tailing loop sees the line crossing over itself AND back again. i.e twice, it is defined as a transverse wave. in the video there is no transverse wave.
A crossed line is not a tailing loop by definition. Its all sorts of other things. An under slung loop, a tight loop cast out of plane, a loop commonly seen on spey casters - all sorts - but it's not a tailing loop. See below. THIS IS NOT A TAILING LOOP

Not a tailing Loop swift fly fishing
'...a tailing loop sees the line crossing over itself AND back again.'
With respect, this is an incorrect statement. A tail is a concave dip in the fly leg and is still a tail even if it does not cross the rod leg. In casting circles a tail that does not cross the rod leg is sometimes described as a 'tailing tendency'. It's still a tail though.
 

PaulD

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'...a tailing loop sees the line crossing over itself AND back again.'
With respect, this is an incorrect statement.
With respect, I disagree. :p

The video shows 'tailing tendencies'. Have a look at the GAIA video - it shows numbers of tailing tendencies and these - tailing loops.

GAIA Tailing Loop.png
 

andygrey

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With respect, I disagree. :p

The video shows 'tailing tendencies'. Have a look at the GAIA video - it shows numbers of tailing tendencies and these - tailing loops.

View attachment 43672
If we can agree that the cause of both 'tailing loops' and 'tailing tendency's' are the same thing (i.e. a dip of the rod tip below the SLP during the casting stroke) then a tail is still a tail, regardless of wether it crosses the rod leg or not. It's essentially 2 names for the same thing the only differentiation being crossing the fly leg or not, but the casting fault that causes it is still the same.
I suspect that the term 'tailing tendency' was adopted as a bit of a fudge by various casting organisations to cover the fact that they had been defining tails incorrectly for a long time.
 

karlsson

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No further progress then. Maybe we can pull this cast apart to get moving again.


The caster says this is a tailing loop - my view is that it isn't.

For a start it's a crossed/closed loop not a tailing loop as normally defined.

The caster says it's been caused by the concavity in the rod tip's path - my view is that it hasn't - the most obvious reason being that there's very little concavity in the rod tip's path, despite the caster's attempts to put one in. (He's right that it's caused by the incorrect application of power, just not the way he's trying to portray it.)

There's a lot of problems with this cast, the first being that he starts the forward cast before the backcast has rolled out. When the forward cast comes into the frame it's already underneath the rod tip. He brings his hand down sharply to help achieve this, stops too early then makes an upward movement. The upward movement looks like it's pushed the fly line leg above the rod leg creating the loop.

What do you see?
A tailing loop

Rod tip dips due to uneven force application. Creating a transverse wave in the line.
And it even crosses twice for those that think that part matters.

And breaking the 180 degree "rule" doesn't even cause a closed loop either...

Some different tails, and other types of waves in a flyline

And here, breaking the 180 degree rule, some casts have tails, some have closed loops, and curiously, some have neither? Can you spot the reasons for each?


Think I'll go fishing again...

Cheers
Lasse
 

PaulD

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Tangled, it's not a problem.

If you put six casting instructors together you'll have half a dozen different ways to describe the same thing. This is why we often revert to the simple language of the 5 Es and particularly the 'virtual' straight line path and 180 degree 'rule' when discussing issues with loops, whether crossing or tailing, wide or narrow.

How you define a tailing loop will not improve your casting. What will improve your casting is appreciating what is happening within the casting stroke to cause the unwanted effect and how to correct it.
 
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Tangled

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Tangled, it's not a problem.
Depends on what you think a problem is :) . Might not be a problem to you but the fact that it's so difficult to describe and agree causes confusion - which is a problem for me (and I know I'm not alone).

In my opinion, if you're trying to describe and diagnose casting errors it has to start with being able to describe precisely what the symptoms of the errors are.

I started off trying to understand what a tailing loop actually was having seen all sorts of different things described as them. It's very clear now that people in general (including some casting instructors) describe almost all closed loops in the end of a cast a tailing loop.

They also repeat the mantra that they're caused by a dip in rod tip caused by inapropriate application of power - as though that explained it all. Yet we can see from many videos that there's a lot of causes. The "inappropriate application of power" is a bucket term that covers pretty much everything about a casting stroke except its direction (and I could make a case for that too!)
I you put six casting instructors together you'll have half a dozen different ways to describe the same thing.
Yes, you've described the problem :)
How you define a tailing loop will not improve your casting. What will improve your casting is appreciating what is happening within the casting stroke to cause the unwanted effect and how to correct it.
I think we're almost saying the same thing but I'm not there yet.

We see a bit of a mess at the end of the fly line and can see that there's a problem. We know what a good casting stroke looks like so we look for errors in that - which are usually (not always) very obvious and try to get rid of them.

But I think you can fix things quicker and easier if we could properly describe a particular pattern in the loop that we say is a fault. We'd at least cut down the confusion.
 

PaulD

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I'd return your attention to my earlier post #312 which identified 5 common causes in loop faults - differing degrees of which I'd call a transverse wave tailing loop or indeed a single crossed loop. The difficulty in creating the level of definition you would like, is that the majority of casters will display a combination more than one of the causes, thereby making it impossible to identify a singular cause / effect.
 

Tangled

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I'd return your attention to my earlier post #312 which identified 5 common causes in loop faults - differing degrees of which I'd call a transverse wave tailing loop or indeed a single crossed loop.

My only argument with it is that it's describing a specific condition - a tailing loop - and giving a sciency definition that's giving the impression we know what we're talking about. Yet the causes and cures actually apply to all sorts of unwanted activity in the fly legs - mostly making closed loops in the cast that may or may not collide.

To save people looking it up

1632225300464.png

The difficulty in creating the level of definition you would like, is that the majority of casters will display a combination more than one of the causes, thereby making it impossible to identify a singular cause / effect.

I agree, so why are we making it seem like there's only one problem with multiple causes?
 
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