Understanding Casting

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Whinging pom

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I ate a whole packet of magic beans once, and did a magic fart, which made me disappear.

Anyone fancy a thread on casting?
Let me know when it happens and I’ll come back … meanwhile I’ll keep get pro-active ignoring kinetic energy equations and trying get consistency .. what a waste !
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Tangled

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As you're so bored...

I've been trying to find out how tailing loops sometimes create wind knots. I've not seen anyone explain how. Well here's my first attempt at it. Please be nice.

How "Wind" Knots are Formed
It ain't the wind.

In a tailing loop the flyline leg crosses the rod leg of the flyline twice.

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But for that action to create an overhand knot in the line two other things have to happen:

1. one part of the tailing loop must be on one side of the fly leg and one on the other. ie the fly leg and the rod leg of the fly line have crossed. In a knot that’s called an elbow

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2. somehow the fly must have entered the crossed-leg loop to make the knot - the 'working end’ has to pass through the 'elbow’. A loop that has simply crossed/collided would make a mess but not necessarily form an overhand knot.

For 2. to happen the fly must have travelled faster than the crossed loop so as to enter it and then exit it, forming the knot. But the fly can never be moving faster than the loop ahead of it, because it's the loop that's 'towing' the fly. (This is contentious, what's actually happening at the loop is complicated, but let's go with the analogy for a while.)

The fly can't go faster than the loop unless the crossed loop has slowed down. eg. Car, A, is towing Car B and both are doing 30mph. If Car A suddenly brakes and slows down to 10mph and Car B doesn’t also brake, Car B will carry on at 30mph until it either collides with car A or overtakes it.

And it seems that that is what is happening; it's the collision of the fly line legs that slows the fly line in the air, and the momentum that is already in the fly carries it onwards straight through the slowing collided loop. Shazam.

youtu.be

Tailing Loops

Some slow motion footage of tailing loop collisions.
youtu.be
youtu.be
 

ohanzee

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I'm going to pose the most controversial theory of all, that wind knots are indeed formed by wind, allow me to explain..two things happen, one is a vertical tailing loop, the other comes from the observation that I only seem to get wind knots with a right to left wind(I'm right handed) what I think happens is that the tail provides a vertical loop of line and the fly having greater mass is blown through it by the wind completing the knot.
I'm not done yet, at this point the knot is still a loose tangle, I have stopped soon enough to take a loose wind knot out having seen it happen, they come out if caught in time, so part two is they tighten further with the next or subsequent casts yanking on it.

How's that for turning myths upside down, it needs wind to blow the fly into the loop of the knot.
 

Whinging pom

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I have a suspicion that the majority of 'wind knots' do not occur during the cast but rather after the cast / leader has landed, when the point of the leader falls through the collapsed loop formed in the cast.
My worst scenario for wind knots is ( 6’ medium action 2wt) under the trees with trees close on the opposite bank and I try and narrow my loops on a side cast to resist getting snagged in the herbage. My default setting is to speed up and try and snap forward. The adrenaline of a rising fish I can’t help it.

I can fish for days without a problem then this scenario happens and I usually end up trying to tease a knot out of a furled leader… it’s never the tippet !

Edit:
“I'm going to pose the most controversial theory of all, that wind knots are indeed formed by wind” ….quote ,ohanzee

I got two in the tippet while practicing casting with the 9’ 5wt last night … there wasn’t a breath of wind , but oh boy was I throwing some bad tails ( when I say bad I don’t mean bad ass, I mean just awful. I mean I might as well just get a net and a jam jar and catch minnows that’s all Im good for … awfull 🤦🏻‍♂️)
 
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Tangled

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I have a suspicion that the majority of 'wind knots' do not occur during the cast but rather after the cast / leader has landed, when the point of the leader falls through the collapsed loop formed in the cast.
Certainly when the line and leader land in a pile anything can happen.
 

Whinging pom

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Depends on conditions. The furled leader is 1.2 - 1.6 m,
If things are breezy or I’m likely to snag or on bigger sedge it’s about 1m of 6x.

Mostly I’ll put on an extra 60cm to 1m of 7x though and this gets it too for one particular trout that’s evaded my attentions all season

In answer to your question if I’m in the stretch that’s tree lined usually I’m a coward and 1m of 6x. ( seagar gran max).
 
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Tangled

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Depends on conditions. The furled leader is 1.2 - 1.6 m,
If things are breezy or I’m likely to snag or on bigger sedge it’s about 1m of 6x.

Mostly I’ll put on an extra 60cm to 1m of 7x though and this gets it too for one particular trout that’s evaded my attentions all season

In answer to your question if I’m in the stretch that’s tree lined usually I’m a coward and 1m of 6x. ( seagar gran max).
So you're getting your knots more than a meter up the line from the fly?
 

Whinging pom

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So you're getting your knots more than a meter up the line from the fly?
Yep way up .
As it happens I was just about to bin a furly from last week ( same bloody trout !!) and from the fly end of the tippet it’s 140cm to the wind knot which is 20 cm into the furly . I will have probably changed a few flys before the end of the session so you can add 15-20cm.
What’s your thought
 

Tangled

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What’s your thought
Dunno :cool:

I've spent a week or so chucking fake tailing loops - hundreds of them. Most don't result in a knot. So far I've been unable to put one in the fly line. I'd say most are within a foot or so of the fly but I haven't been counting.

My garden only allows a 30' forward cast so there's going to be factor in that.
 

Whinging pom

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Dunno :cool:

I've spent a week or so chucking fake tailing loops - hundreds of them. Most don't result in a knot. So far I've been unable to put one in the fly line. I'd say most are within a foot or so of the fly but I haven't been counting.

My garden only allows a 30' forward cast so there's going to be factor in that.
Thanks
Listen I’m talking maybe 6-10’ of fly line past the tip 4 ft of leader and 3.5 -7’ of tippet ,Were talking really tight in a stream about 8-10’ wide then willow or hawthorn And I’m poor to reasonable at best, without the challenging Scenario
Over head casting I never ever get a wind knot with the 6 footer, turn it on its side with a fly eating tree and it’s almost guaranteed!
Shame you can’t just turn up on the lawn of some these guys and say “what’s going on here then. ?” But I reckon the info is probably already there , I just need to read and work at it !
 

aenoon

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Thanks
Listen I’m talking maybe 6-10’ of fly line past the tip 4 ft of leader and 3.5 -7’ of tippet ,Were talking really tight in a stream about 8-10’ wide then willow or hawthorn And I’m poor to reasonable at best, without the challenging Scenario
Over head casting I never ever get a wind knot with the 6 footer, turn it on its side with a fly eating tree and it’s almost guaranteed!
Shame you can’t just turn up on the lawn of some these guys and say “what’s going on here then. ?” But I reckon the info is probably already there , I just need to read and work at it !
Naw, just work on pointing rod tip down at end of that short side cast, rather than it being up or level!
 

geenomad

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I have a suspicion that the majority of 'wind knots' do not occur during the cast but rather after the cast / leader has landed, when the point of the leader falls through the collapsed loop formed in the cast.
Quite possible. I often also notice them in the tippet after i've been grass casting and dynamic rolling or doing PUALDs without any obvious tails or collisions between the line legs and suspect it happens when the fly catches on the grass et al, twangs loose on the pick up and a leader or leader/line collision ensues.

Comment on thread direction. I like science in general and casting mechanics in particular but only to the extent that it tells me something useful about how to cast better. Possibly the best I have had in that regard is understanding the full meaning of Newton's second law. In simple terms - Force equals mass times acceleration.

The relevant Force is net force in a single direction. For us that's the intended direction of the cast. Force applied in any other direction is lost or worse, opposes our intention. When the (line) mass being accelerated is small, Force theft is extremely costly and unlikely to made good by heaving - overpowering.

Cheers
Mark
 

Tangled

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Thanks
Listen I’m talking maybe 6-10’ of fly line past the tip 4 ft of leader and 3.5 -7’ of tippet ,Were talking really tight in a stream about 8-10’ wide then willow or hawthorn And I’m poor to reasonable at best, without the challenging Scenario
Over head casting I never ever get a wind knot with the 6 footer, turn it on its side with a fly eating tree and it’s almost guaranteed!
Shame you can’t just turn up on the lawn of some these guys and say “what’s going on here then. ?” But I reckon the info is probably already there , I just need to read and work at it !

It's hard to know without seeing you but if the problem is tailing loops the answer is almost always about where you're applying power. (You could be doing a number of other thing too, but I'd start there) I suspect you're overpowering the cast to keep the fly/flyline off the water when you're side casting. Are you using a weighted fly?

Get into a big open space and do some nice and simple overhead false casting then slowly lower the rod angle until it's horizontal and watch what you're doing. If you start getting tails go back to the angle you didn't and stay there for a while then lower it again. The best way I can deliberately make a mess of my line is to make short stabby casts.
 

Tangled

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I'm going to pose the most controversial theory of all, that wind knots are indeed formed by wind, allow me to explain..two things happen, one is a vertical tailing loop, the other comes from the observation that I only seem to get wind knots with a right to left wind(I'm right handed) what I think happens is that the tail provides a vertical loop of line and the fly having greater mass is blown through it by the wind completing the knot.
I'm not done yet, at this point the knot is still a loose tangle, I have stopped soon enough to take a loose wind knot out having seen it happen, they come out if caught in time, so part two is they tighten further with the next or subsequent casts yanking on it.

How's that for turning myths upside down, it needs wind to blow the fly into the loop of the knot.

I suspect what is really happening is that your right-handed cast is leaning to the side so that your fly leg starts outside the rod leg as normal, but then when the tail forms the fly leg gets blown into the rod leg causing the collision and consequent slow down, allowing the fly to pass through the mess.

I suppose that casting off your left shoulder would stop it?
 
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