Understanding Casting

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Tangled

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ohanzee

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If you look at Flip's video that small blip in the fly line at 1:28 totally trashes the leader.

Looked and no blip, I'm not seeing the blips that mean anything in any, and where you see blips is the wrong part of the stroke to create the tail.

What part of the stroke(effecting the tip/line) do you think is creating the tail?
 

LukeNZ

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Show me sensai Tangled, so that I can learn from you…. teach this child how to cast please.

Just a short video is all it would take; a few casts from you, so that I can be fully in awe of your capabilities..?

Your ability should mirror your knowledge, otherwise what is the point, and what have you really got..?

I am happy to do the same, so that you can correct my meagre attempts with single hand hauls, and my repetoir of two-handed short/mid/long belly, Scandi and Skagit chops..

With all of these rod and line combos I can produce the faults (if you think of them as that) which you are struggling to explain to us here.

There are many ways to make them occur intentionally, so when you can intentionally repeat tailing loops et al, at will, in a variety of ways with different rod and line types, then would that not lead somebody to think they have at least a few clues on the subject?

It seems that you will readilly question the competance of others, but you are bringing nothing to the table yourself?

So go ahead, accept the challenge, are you a man, or a mouse.. front-up!

A theory is all just, well - theory…🥱 …so demonstrate please (if you can’t - then perhaps you are not the right person to be judging the input of others?).

🙃
 
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Rhithrogena

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There are many ways to make them occur intentionally, so when you can intentionally repeat tailing loops et al, at will, in a variety of ways with different rod and line types, then would that not lead somebody to think they have at least a few clues on the subject
Well I'll say it if no one else will....
Go on then Luke, can you please video yourself showing some of the techniques involved in creating these faults at will?
It would genuinely add something to this thread.
I haven't seen the OP suggest he is able to do this so I think your challenge will go unheeded.
A man of your means will have suitable tech to film yourself. Go do it today!
 

James9118

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That would be a shame but I understand why anyone who's been through this process would not want to do it again.

But just before you go, I know you're a big fan of straight lines. So wtf is going on here?

A properly executed '170' cast is a very rare thing - I think I probably know of less than a dozen people in the UK that can perform this cast well. If you want to move from casting 120ft into the 130+ft region then this is the cast to learn. It's also handy for when you're wading with a gently sloping bank behind you - it produces a climbing back cast.

How it works is easy to describe, but not easy to produce practically. It is also dependent on tension, so if you don't believe what I've written previously about the difference between the rod-leg and the fly-leg then you won't believe this (but that's up to you).

The way to maximise the momentum in the fly-leg when making the back cast is to accelerate it for the longest time possible (we're approaching bio-mechanics here which isn't my area of expertise). However, if you keep accelerating through what would be regarded as the 'normal' stop point for a fly cast then the fly-leg momentum will be at a maximum. However, you will also throw a massively wide loop because of the arc you've transcribed with the rod.

Now just at the end of the back cast, if you're using a WF line and you are carrying a significant amount of overhang, then the heavy head is travelling mostly backwards, whereas the loop and the initial rod-leg is made of lighter running line. As mentioned in my previously ignored posts, the tension in the rod-leg is proportional to the rate of change of momentum in the fly-leg. This tension effectively pulls taut the lighter running line that has formed the rod-leg in the 170 cast.

To understand this you need to fully grasp the tension difference between the rod-leg and the fly-leg. I get this and take great delight in seeing my 170 casts bounce-up into a super tight loop. Not many do though.

To go back to one of my favourite sayings: "to cast far you need 3 things; good tracking, high line speed, and tight loops - however if you get the first two right the 3rd will largely look after itself". The '170' cast is a perfect example of this.
 
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LukeNZ

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Well I'll say it if no one else will....
Go on then Luke, can you please video yourself showing some of the techniques involved in creating these faults at will?
It would genuinely add something to this thread.
I haven't seen the OP suggest he is able to do this so I think your challenge will go unheeded.
A man of your means will have suitable tech to film yourself. Go do it today!

Well I am certain there is already at least one photo in a thread somwhere on here of me doing just that, on the Tongariro a few months ago, am sure you can find it.

It is pretty clear to see the loop ‘tailing’ as Tangled would describe it; but then when you look at all the coils of line in my left hand that are about to be released (another 60-80ft. or so, just guessing), it is certainly not a fault, is it. Just another well executed and orthodox single spey..🤓

But am happy to produce a video, if sensai Tangled is up for the task of walking his talk too.

Correct, it is a simple thing to do, just a phone, a wife or friend with a camera - Tangled just needs to demonstrate his theory - then it is no longer theory, but demonstrable fact.

If he expects others to prove or disprove his theories, because he cant’t - he may as well be debating ‘flat earth..’ or some other circular navel gazing with a group of children.

At some point he has to prove it, and the best way to do that, is show us - walk his talk..?

You could just as easilly I imagine, do the same - so dont be shy.. you are a casting instuctor, are you not? After all it is your qualification that Tangled is saying he understands, better than you do..

🙃
 

LukeNZ

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Time you did the vids Luke, otherwise you are going to go down with Tangled!

Haha, I realise I have put myself in the frame for that, and if Tangled agree’s, then obviously I am up for it. But I am one up already, as you do have a clear photo of me a tually doing it.

What is quite surprising, is that the qualified casting instructors that extole their undoubted expertise and knowledge on this forum, are not able to demonstrate how to cast tails, as I would imagine they can do it in their sleep?

Then once they can reliably repeat it, show us what is consistent in doing it, that differs from their standard stroke; catch it on their phone or camera and tripod?

At the end of the day Tangled is telling them they are wrong. So I am suggexting Tangled show me/us his chops, so that we can make our own minds up if he is on to something or just some kind of gobshiite?

He has clearly inferred that I don’t have a clue, so let us see him perform - and I will too.

Casting instructors, this is also your cue too to step-up and show us what you say your qualification does. As Tangled has said; you are experts and proffesionals, but - you can’t qualify to his mind, that you know any more than he does..

I believe you do, so why not show him?

🙃
 
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Rhithrogena

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You could just as easilly I imagine, do the same - so dont be shy.. you are a casting instuctor, are you not?
I am certified and WAS an instructor many moons ago. Newly returned to flycasting at the start of the first UK lockdown after many years mostly away. Playing catch-up on new developments in the theory here, and certainly not able to "intentionally repeat tailing loops et al, at will, in a variety of ways with different rod and line types"
After all it is your qualification that Tangled is saying he understands, better than you do..
Funny, but I must have missed him saying this. He seems to be (ceaselessly) saying he DOESN'T understand certain accepted truisms, and isn't easily persuaded by less than convincing, to him, explanations.
 

Tangled

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I'm a little surprised by all this, tailing loops can be produced on demand by anybody that can do even a passable overhead cast.

Get 30' of line out (plus 9' leader).
Make a back cast.
Start forward cast then immediately punch it forward too hard
Aim high and stop the rod short of your usual cast

The first time you do it it'll probably hit your rod tip. Slow it down a bit and you'll see the tails in front of you.

It's totally fake of course, people don't generally cast that way but it's what you'll see demonstrated when asked to produce them deliberately.
 

Rhithrogena

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tailing loops can be produced on demand by anybody that can do even a passable overhead cast.
I can produce single crosses like this, but not double-crosses reliably, and not in all the ways possible (so creep, slack, tip-path, force too early, over rotation etc, etc...)
I thought this is what Luke is suggesting he CAN do with variius types of outfit 🤷‍♂️
 

Tangled

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I can produce single crosses like this, but not double-crosses reliably,
Yes it’s a multi-fault cast that’ll throw up all sorts of line messes and is why I was begging to see some ‘real’ ones; what I called ‘natural’ tails. I wanted to see those small dents turn into big loops. And now I think I have :)
and not in all the ways possible (so creep, slack, tip-path, force too early, over rotation etc, etc...)
I thought this is what Luke is suggesting he CAN do with variius types of outfit 🤷‍♂️
Ah, well that *would* be interesting :cool:
 

ohanzee

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Ok, so, moving on but on the same theme of unwanted tail type wavy stuff, I'd like to pose an issue that I used to have, resolved by doing something I was told, but to this day never understood the mechanics of...it worked so never gave it a second thought.

So I had a misbehaving leader making odd shapes after the stop on the back cast, I was convinced it was still misbehaving through the forward cast due to what happened in that moment(before the forward cast started) but might have been a second problem(maybe even the same repeat of the first) to describe...the cast was good and tight but the leader would flip out of line, sometimes hang down and so on when the cast rolled out.

The cure was to soften the stop and damp the tip, sudden but gentle rather than firm, it became a sudden deceleration rather than a firm stop, with a bit of focus on not letting the tip wander when stationary by drifting in a deliberate direction of the line.

This fixed it and I never gave it a second thought as to what was going on there, so what was going on there?
 

LukeNZ

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Ok, so, moving on but on the same theme of unwanted tail type wavy stuff, I'd like to pose an issue that I used to have, resolved by doing something I was told, but to this day never understood the mechanics of...it worked so never gave it a second thought.

So I had a misbehaving leader making odd shapes after the stop on the back cast, I was convinced it was still misbehaving through the forward cast due to what happened in that moment(before the forward cast started) but might have been a second problem(maybe even the same repeat of the first) to describe...the cast was good and tight but the leader would flip out of line, sometimes hang down and so on when the cast rolled out.

The cure was to soften the stop and damp the tip, sudden but gentle rather than firm, it became a sudden deceleration rather than a firm stop, with a bit of focus on not letting the tip wander when stationary by drifting in a deliberate direction of the line.

This fixed it and I never gave it a second thought as to what was going on there, so what was going on there?
Sometimes line twist due to the dynamic of the leader taper gradient and possibly even the way a fly swims (spins) can have an effect as it all untwists in both the forward and backcast. It is more common with two handed casting - but streamers single hand can bring about a similar phenomenon. Generally when performing the same cast over and over.

A tailing loop that see's the cast go all the way out, with the fly tailing / hanging all the way above the surface of the water signiificantly below the loop.

When I see or suspect any adverse twist I remove the fly and let the working length of line drift down stream to neutralise - wind it back up. Look at the fly and see if tails are caught up in the hook, or that any trailing hook (micro introder, leech type flies) is not caught up in the body of the fly - and ensure all is still workably symmetrical.
 
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