Understanding Fly Line to Leader Connections

easker1

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when I cast it is back and up or is it up and back? rather than just back ,It has taken me most of my life to become an over night success, and I can still make mistakes, but there you go, easker1
 

lhomme

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when I cast it is back and up or is it up and back? rather than just back ,It has taken me most of my life to become an over night success, and I can still make mistakes, but there you go, easker1
We're only humans, aren't we? No-one is perfect. As long as the fish think we are all is well.
 

geenomad

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My $0.02AU fwiw. I'll leave aside the question of leader construction - in general and for particular applications - except to offer that the mechanics of kinetic energy and the effects of linear density aren't bad starting points for a fundamental understanding of what goes on when a flyline and then leader turnover while towing a fly or flies.

Over the years I've fished most of the connection methods mentioned except for leader butts inserted into flyline cores. Skipping over the history, I now fish almost exclusively with loop to loop connections and have done for 20+ years. The loop on the flyline is made from braided nylon whether that's for bones or GTs on the flats or trout in streams or impoundments. As a recent experiment I stripped some coating off the end of the trout flyline and looped the core. It's neat but not a vast improvement over Moser loops or DIY ones. Presentation for nervy fish can be altered by both longer tippets and how the delivery cast is executed.

Throughout my fishing and casting history I have frequently heard about but very seldom experienced the dreaded hingeing effect. In fact the only time I ever notice any such effect is on very long (practice) casts and when the fly line coating just behind the loop has cracked. The cracking very rarely occurs on fishing lines but it will happen with practice casting lines after innumerable casts. For all my lines I ease the transition from line to loop with a taper of PU glue.

Redux. I am yet to have a significant problem with hingeing when I am fishing. Turnover fails for other reasons. :)

Cheers
Mark
 

Tangled

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I'm also wondering whether hingeing is theorectical rather than real. Has anybody actually seen it or tested it?
 

Tangled

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All I can say is I've no idea now what's being spoken about.. 🤔
This

Hinging is were the connection between line and leader is imperfect; if it's loose both parts can move independently of the other. As the energy provided by the casting action travels down the line it meets this 'floppy' joint and its energy can't be transferred, so in an extreme situation of no real connection at all, the leader just drops down in a mess.
 

PaulD

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I'm also wondering whether hingeing is theorectical rather than real. Has anybody actually seen it or tested it?

Hinging occurs where the join between the fly line and the leader is inefficient. As Mark says, that may be as a result of a 'broken' joint, as in his example of the line covering cracking above the loop but more commonly the effect is caused by the difference in diameter and rigidity of the change from the fly line to the leader. Now, if you fish mainly with the wind behind you, you roll cast a team of flies over the front of a drifting boat for example, you'd have very little difficulty fishing with a level leader of say 4X, around 6lb breaking strain. However, if you were attempting to cast a large Mayfly upstream, facing a downstream breeze you'd soon discover that the leader would not extend and turn over as the energy transfer from the fly line to the 4X leader is insufficient - the cast collapses - the analogy would be along the lines of attempting to push a hair into play dough. Hence, the joint between fly line and leader needs to continue the taper of diameter/ rigidity/ density.
 

Tangled

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Yeh, I understand the concept, I'm just wondering whether and in what circumstances hinging can be caused only by the type of connection used. Ignoring tapers and line size differences for the moment.

It seems to me that the loop to loop connection is the only one where this could happen as the 'knot' joint can flex.

The way I've seen this demonstrated is by using what they describe as the parabolic test. You make the connection then hold the line 6" on either side of it and bend it. If the line creates a smooth curve it's fine, if it creates an angle, it's inefficient.

But does that effect exist in real life casting? Dunno
 

original cormorant

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Thank you Paul - I did say son
It seems to me that the loop to loop connection is the only one where this could happen as the 'knot' joint can flex.

Thanks Paul - as I said further up one of these GAIA guys will be able to explain it.

Tangled
I completely disagree with your view on loop to loop You expressed it previously and I thought you'd missed out "not" or "no" by mistake . By having the doubled leader in the joint the transition from flyline to leader is made smoother and less likely to hinge (if there is such a thing).
 

PaulD

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With regard to loop-to-loop connections you need to be sure that the loops used in the joint are not too large and again the material used to form the loops is not too 'light'or too flexible.
 

Tangled

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Tangled
I completely disagree with your view on loop to loop You expressed it previously and I thought you'd missed out "not" or "no" by mistake . By having the doubled leader in the joint the transition from flyline to leader is made smoother and less likely to hinge (if there is such a thing).

Can you quote what I'm saying so I can see what you're disagreeing with - I don't know what you're referring to.
 

original cormorant

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Thanks that's the sort of thing I'm after - authoritative but also understandable. It also brings up the idea of hinging that I need to include.

It strikes me - without any evidence at all - that a loop to loop connection could be a better source of hinging than almost any other method.

Plus "It seems to me that the loop to loop connection is the only one where this could happen as the 'knot' joint can flex. " from a couple of postings ago.
 

Tangled

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Plus "It seems to me that the loop to loop connection is the only one where this could happen as the 'knot' joint can flex. " from a couple of postings ago.

Ok. My reasoning is that the loop to loop connection is the only connection that could be loose enough to hinge. All the others are mechanically fixed. Whether this is actually a real life possibility is one of the questions I'm asking.

Additionally, the only two examples of hinging I've seen - using that parabolic test I spoke about above - was in loop to loop connection.

Why do you think this is wrong?
 

original cormorant

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Ok. My reasoning is that the loop to loop connection is the only connection that could be loose enough to hinge. All the others are mechanically fixed. Whether this is actually a real life possibility is one of the questions I'm asking.

Additionally, the only two examples of hinging I've seen - using that parabolic test I spoke about above - was in loop to loop connection.

Why do you think this is wrong?
Because in the parabolic test you are compressing the connection and I can't see how this would happen in casting, where it is stretched rather than compressed. Or perhaps I misunderstand your parabolic test.
 

Tangled

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Because in the parabolic test you are compressing the connection and I can't see how this would happen in casting, where it is stretched rather than compressed. Or perhaps I misunderstand your parabolic test.

There's a (possibly exaggerated) example under the hinging section in the drag book.

1592737630886.png
 

caeran

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Tangled
That diagram explains what I meant when I said the leader “ whips “ up
Maybe wrong use if the word
But I have seen the leader flick ( hinge) up and then drop lifeless onto the water
I “ get” what you are proposing but maybe I didn’t give the best explanation


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

JCP

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The best join for energy transfer using a 9ft leader in my experience is Maxima nylon section inserted into the core and out the side.Glue applied and pulled back in flush.Sexy Loops ''excuse the pun''.However this has very limited use in terms of flexibility hence like a previous poster I plumb for loop to loop ak. ''handshake'' most of the time.I have used the ''catspaw'' loop connection which totally curtails any hinging but normally ''handshake'' is enough.
Hinging occurs where the join between the fly line and the leader is inefficient. As Mark says, that may be as a result of a 'broken' joint, as in his example of the line covering cracking above the loop but more commonly the effect is caused by the difference in diameter and rigidity of the change from the fly line to the leader. Now, if you fish mainly with the wind behind you, you roll cast a team of flies over the front of a drifting boat for example, you'd have very little difficulty fishing with a level leader of say 4X, around 6lb breaking strain. However, if you were attempting to cast a large Mayfly upstream, facing a downstream breeze you'd soon discover that the leader would not extend and turn over as the energy transfer from the fly line to the 4X leader is insufficient - the cast collapses - the analogy would be along the lines of attempting to push a hair into play dough. Hence, the joint between fly line and leader needs to continue the taper of diameter/ rigidity/ density.
Therein lies the ''fit for purpose''analogy of this thread.
 

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