Understanding Fly Line to Leader Connections

geenomad

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Hinging occurs where the join between the fly line and the leader is inefficient. As Mark says, that may be as a result of a 'broken' joint, as in his example of the line covering cracking above the loop but more commonly the effect is caused by the difference in diameter and rigidity of the change from the fly line to the leader. Now, if you fish mainly with the wind behind you, you roll cast a team of flies over the front of a drifting boat for example, you'd have very little difficulty fishing with a level leader of say 4X, around 6lb breaking strain. However, if you were attempting to cast a large Mayfly upstream, facing a downstream breeze you'd soon discover that the leader would not extend and turn over as the energy transfer from the fly line to the 4X leader is insufficient - the cast collapses - the analogy would be along the lines of attempting to push a hair into play dough. Hence, the joint between fly line and leader needs to continue the taper of diameter/ rigidity/ density.

Hi Paul
A belated welcome back mate. :) What I was hinting at above was that failures of turnover, actually caused by inefficient technique, are often ascribed to inefficient gear/tackle. I don't want to debate the science because imho in this context one aspect of casting mechanics leads to others and in the end complexity and confusion generate little practical light for the fly fisher.

Thing is with turnover, after loop formation there is both a push me (KE of the fly leg) and a pull me restraint from the rod leg and it's only when KE (or restraint) becomes critically low that the efficiency of its "transmission" via the loop becomes a biggie. To be clear the context I'm assuming is WFF or DT with a front taper followed by a leader, usually but not always also tapered.

Consider, a different but similar example, the problem of overhang in casting a shooting head. Too much running line outside the rod tip and it all goes brown. Is that an instance of (reverse) hingeing? Would increasing rigidity without changing linear density of the running line make a significant difference?

Let me suggest something else to ponder. Taking your example of an upstream cast into a downstream wind (assuming it's blowing steadily) would it make a difference if the 4X level leader was shortened, let's say progressively from 12' to 2'. If so is "hingeing" still the right way of describing the problem? Alternatively, if downstream is still south and upstream is still north and we gradually fan cast from south to west or east and on around to due north at what point would the hingeing trouble begin?

Like I said, good to have you back.

Oh and returning to the general question of connections loop to loop (and again avoiding a dissertation ) ime they don't come loose and kept small enough a braided loop doesn't cause a significant turnover problem, if any.

Cheers
Mark
 

Tangled

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I've come to the end of what I have to say. Have I missed anything?
 

Wee Jimmy

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Just one thing. Why make your furlie float? If your degreasing tippet to hide it, this seems counter intuitive

Keeping the flyline tip and furled leader well greased helps us to pick off the fly from the water surface ,quietly and without that fish spooking sizzle of spray we get if we don’t grease them.
 

morayfisher

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Also, with reference to some of the above posts about not having an abrupt change from relatively stiff fly line to limp tippet because of hinging;
why do very limp furlies work so well?
Is it because of their mass at the butt end?
 

SirHarryLewis

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Keeping the flyline tip and furled leader well greased helps us to pick off the fly from the water surface ,quietly and without that fish spooking sizzle of spray we get if we don’t grease them.
Ah. I see
How often would you do this? And would you do this to the point where you degrease the rest?
 

Wee Jimmy

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Ah. I see
How often would you do this? And would you do this to the point where you degrease the rest?

I’m in the tippet must be under the surface camp so I will always keep degreasing it as and whenever is necessary . Likewise I will lard up my flyline tip and/or furled leader at the first sign of it dipping under the film.
 

weiliwen

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Furled leaders, I’ll try and explain as best I can, but please remember these are my thoughts and my experience only.
They are like Marmite, you either love them or hate them, I’m not a big fan of Marmite but I love my Furlies.
They are constructed using a jig with various pegs at certain distances which determine the overall taper.
Most are constructed from fine strong thread, in my case I use either Guttermans or Benichi or Uni thread, this provides a very strong but supple leader that lies dead straight unlike mono it has no memory.
You can, and I do also make them in mono, exactly the same method, but being mono they are a little stiffer and help to turn over larger flies or nymphs etc on Stillwater when you are casting at distance.
A Furlie is constructed from many wraps of thread that are brought together on the jig by spinning them with in my case a Dremmel tool.
They are then hung with a weight on the bottom And furl naturally.
Once furled You create a shorb loop in the thick end, this is formed so you can loop to loop on your fly line, either welded loop or braided loop.
On the tapered end either a small shorb loop is made or as some prefer a Riverge mini ring, in my case a 2mm one.
To that you simply attach your tippet I use a turned blood knot, I’m confident in that but the choice is yours.
The length of tippet you put on is normally the same length as the Furlie, but some prefer to add quite a lot more, if you can turn over your fly well with a longer piece then go for it, I put approx 6 ft of tippet on a 5ft Furlie.
People seem concerned that trout will see the Furlie with such a short tippet, but it’s a complete myth.
If you see a rising fish and you can’t present your fly without getting your leader or fly line Into the fishes window, then without sounding harsh, you need casting lessons. ;)
To make a Furlie float I use and recommend Mucilin paste it’s what I’ve used for the last 12 years and it works fine.
Otter butter is another item that’s highly thought of, but it’s quite expensive in comparison and IMO not needed.
If youre fishing nymphs or sub surface then leave your Furlie untreated and it will sink.
When I discovered them 12 years ago it was a Eureka moment for me, I was bowled over by their gentle and accurate presentation.
I’ve tried a few times since to fIsh with a mono tapered leader, but within half an hour of stretching them to remove coils and greasing them every other cast to keep them afloat, I loose my patience and take them off again.
Hope that makes sens and helps a bit.
S.
I also used Furled leaders, but was surprised to hear Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis state that he's never fished with anybody who's ever used one. I imagine that he has fished with all the current and recently departed greats, so that says something to me.
 

gordond

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I use a length of twisted 'singaporean' home made leader as the butt part of my leader. The advantage is that the loop at the butt end is not made with a knot and is quite stiff.
If my fly line comes with a welded loop otherwise I use a Moser or home made loop, fixed with two short nail knots, or make a loop in the fly line fixed with 2 nail knots.

I like the home made twisted leaders as I can make different versions with various monofilaments... Maxima if I want it to float or sink slowly, fluoro if I want it to sink, coloured if I want to see it. I can also make one on the bank if I have to... Usually to give to another angler I have met.



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Tangled

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I use a length of twisted 'singaporean' home made leader as the butt part of my leader. The advantage is that the loop at the butt end is not made with a knot and is quite stiff

Can you explain what a 'singaporian' leader is? Any pictures/video?
 

PaulD

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Can you explain what a 'singaporian' leader is? Any pictures/video?

It was previously shared on the Forum . . .

 

Tangled

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It was previously shared on the Forum . . .


Ah, so it's a handmade furled leader then, still requires the loop on the fly line.

 

delray

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I think I'll stick to that famous Furled Leader manufacturer on here..... The only reason I've ever had to order another one is by my stupid actions, accidentally putting a knot in it, and even then i don't think it made a lot of odds. I've never worn one out and the cost per annum is negligible.
 

gordond

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Pedanticly, I understand that a 'singaporean'' leader is twisted not furled.
To furl means to fold or roll. These leaders are definitely twisted.
The advantage is that it is cheap, quickly made and it works.



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speytime

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I also used Furled leaders, but was surprised to hear Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis state that he's never fished with anybody who's ever used one. I imagine that he has fished with all the current and recently departed greats, so that says something to me.
That also speaks volumes to me, where's he been fishing for the last 30/40+ years on the moon?

Al
 

easker1

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the old tapered leaders were always Knotted, some times 5sections of silkworm gut to make the taper, even when Luron came about it was still a knotted taper, I still use a Figure"8"knot to join my fly line to leader, easker1
 

BobP

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I also used Furled leaders, but was surprised to hear Tom Rosenbauer of Orvis state that he's never fished with anybody who's ever used one. I imagine that he has fished with all the current and recently departed greats, so that says something to me.

Not that surprising really. Of all the dozens of people I've guided for over the last 7 seasons only one used a furled leader. He was an American, but so are many of the clients and he was the only one. He was an extremely good angler and put his furled leader to good use over the two days I was with him.

No-one has ever asked me about them and how to use them either, so it would seem that they are not that popular in the USA or on the chalkstreams.
 

ohanzee

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Under Polyleaders.......

'They are very commonly used in salmon fishing less so for trout, but can a useful.'
 

vital

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Interesting thread which appears pretty comprehensive for 'beginners', but will actually have them running for the hills, there's too much to understand for a complete novice who has so many other things to deal with and put into practice. Nevertheless, a thoroughly wide-ranging piece covering a multitude of options that we can all enjoy and comment on as we feel it fits. The only thing I would add is the use of the flexible resins for jointing/knotting but I can't offer any practical research and details of longevity.
 

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