Understanding Fly Lines

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
45,451
Double spey is best done with a double taper spey line! Line can be "slipped" as you put it during the transition through the first d onto the second arc to increase distance, if required!

You could say the same for a lift and lay overhead cast in that you can slip line into the back cast, but the point is it doesn't matter if it's overhead or spey, you cast pretty much what you pick up and both shoot the same.
Tangled's assumption that shooting heads are for overhead casting is a naive one.
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,355
Location
South Northants
You showed me two different googled images with different length front tapers, that's all.

Somewhere, on a memory stick, I have the plans for a Key Stage, 3 ICT lesson that would undoubtedly benefit Tangled's 'understanding' of using an internet search engine.

Tangled's Google search provided him with the profile of a Rio Outbound Short Shooting Head . . .
"Unique taper design that stays in the air, resulting in long distance casts
Short, powerful front taper that cast large flies easily
Front-loaded weight distribution that loads rods quickly and effortlessly"


The sort of shooting head one would choose for casting large pike flies or poppers into the surf for bass.

Such a pity Tangled didn't include 'spey' in his Rio investigation as he would have discovered the InTouch Trout Spey Shooting Heads . . . and if he had he wouldn't have revealed his own lack of understanding and felt the need to accuse Ohanzee of 'contentless crap' and a lack of understanding.

The INTOUCH TROUT SPEY SHOOTING HEAD has a easy casting, short head for anglers using light two-handed trout Spey rods, and regular single-handed fly rods.

line-profile-intouch-trout-spey-shooting-head (1).jpg


"Look at the profile darling. In the shooting head the weight is at the front of the taper, in spey lines the weight is at the back. There is a good reason for that."

ohanzee said:
The rest of that posts suggests you don't have a clue by the way.
"Same old contentless crap and personal attack then.
You don't understand the first principles of why line profiles are the way they are and how they work do you?"

 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
6,502
Um, Tangled old bean, a 'shooting head' is not a descrition of a particular profile. They were often made from LEVEL flyline, even lead-core level line.
Sure, the idea of a shooting head is a lot of weight - two or three times the AFFTA rating - right at the front of a line and a thin running line behind and they used whatever heavy line they could get. Still do. These days if you buy a shooting head line it will have a profile. And they were always used for overhead distance casting big flies on the reservoirs where't they?

But if you want to spey cast a dry fly or a nymph or three small spiders - ie single-handed trout fishing on rivers like we do - you don't use a shooting head, you use a standard line or a double taper or a line designed as a spey line.

A purpose-built spey line has the weight at the back-end of the line - not at the front like a SH. It's made that way so it can turn over the long light forward taper so the flies don't just fall in a pile. The longe rear taper also means you can mend the line once cast; a true shooting head has thin line that can't be mended.

It is absolutely a 'thing' to Spey cast with them. The front half of a fast sinking DT with Amnesia backing was a standard approach in high flows on Salmon rivers in the late 80's.
You know all those spey, skagit, scandi tips you attach to thin running lines? Shooting heads all.......

Double-handed rods are used to cast modified forms of shooting heads to chuck large lures using a spey cast. I'm a salmon fisher too, I'm fully aware of double-handed shooting head profiles. They have to have enough tapered line behind the heavy front head to make the cast work and unlike a true spey line you have to haul all that running line back inside the rod tip before you can recast.

But come on, we wouldn't choose a true shooting head line to fish for brown trout on our little rivers and we wouldn't choose a spey line to overhead cast on our reservoirs. We could, but we wouldn't.
 
Last edited:

andygrey

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
3,446
Location
West Oxfordshire
You'd recommend a shooting head line for single-hand spey casting?

It's the exact opposite of what you'd need - all the weight at the front of the head, thin line behind it. Of course you *could* cast it but you'd have to keep within the head and why would you?
Can you explain how the mechanics of Spey casting differ between single and double handed rods?
 

Rhithrogena

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2020
Messages
1,468
But come on, we wouldn't choose a true shooting head line to fish for brown trout on our little rivers and we wouldn't choose a spey line to overhead cast on our reservoirs. We could, but we wouldn't.
Let's be clear for the sake of the confused. A 'shooting head' is a piece of fly line attached to light weight backing line. That's all. The idea being that the lighter backing causes less drag in the rod rings than a whole flyline would. Either less drag in the rod rings, allowing easy distance casting, or less drag in the water, allowing deeper sinking of the fly line part.
These principles are key. Light trout shooting heads are available for Spey casting. (Spey lines often make excellent overhead lines, incidentally).
You now seem to have realised your earlier error and admit you know about salmon shooting heads. Good; progress is made.
You need to understand 'light shooting heads' to complete the job.
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,355
Location
South Northants
We must learn to accept that Tangled is not wrong, he cannot be wrong . . .

"How we respond to such people is up to us. The one mistake we should not make is to consider their persistent and rigid refusal to admit they’re wrong as a sign of strength or conviction, because it is the absolute opposite — psychological weakness and fragility."

2018 Guy Winch, Psychology Today.
 

Rhithrogena

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2020
Messages
1,468
This is interesting if you haven't seen it;
Part 1
Part 2
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
6,502
Let's be clear for the sake of the confused. A 'shooting head' is a piece of fly line attached to light weight backing line. That's all. The idea being that the lighter backing causes less drag in the rod rings than a whole flyline would. Either less drag in the rod rings, allowing easy distance casting, or less drag in the water, allowing deeper sinking of the fly line part.

Er yes, I've said all that many times.

These principles are key. Light trout shooting heads are available for Spey casting. (Spey lines often make excellent overhead lines, incidentally).

The principle I'm trying to get over is why the spey line is different from the shooting head line. The specialist SH's weight is at the front of the taper, the specialist spey is towards the rear of it. You do accept that there is a difference?

You now seem to have realised your earlier error and admit you know about salmon shooting heads. Good; progress is made.
You need to understand 'light shooting heads' to complete the job.

It's not an error! Of course I know about the various form of shooting heads for salmon - I use them! And of course there are some used for single handers too. As usual we're just talking across each other.

But the kind of shooting head designed for distance overhead casting is not the same as a spey line head is it? They're different beasts designed for different purposes. The skagits and the scandis are modern variants of real shooting head designed to allow them to be spey and roll cast but they're not real shooting heads, they're hybrids.

Anyway, as always, the hounds are baying and this thread is getting ugly again. So I'm out of it for a while.
 

PaulD

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2020
Messages
2,355
Location
South Northants
Yo
The principle I'm trying to get over is why the spey line is different from the shooting head line. The specialist SH's weight is at the front of the taper, the specialist spey is towards the rear of it. You do accept that there is a difference?
But the kind of shooting head designed for distance overhead casting is not the same as a spey line head is it? They're different beasts designed for different purposes. The skagits and the scandis are modern variants of real shooting head designed to allow them to be spey and roll cast but they're not real shooting heads, they're hybrids.

Anyway, as always, the hounds are baying and this thread is getting ugly again. So I'm out of it for a while.

You've tried to rephrase your argument, you're now trying to tell us what a 'real' or specialist shooting head is. I have a number of my original shooting heads, cut from double tapers and the shooting line attached to the belly - by your argument this is not a shooting head because it tapers from the belly to the tip. If I attached the shooting line to the tip would it then become a 'real' or 'specialist' shooting head. My level lead cored heads aren't shooting heads . . . because they're level?

Anyway the 'Hounds' have pointed out the depths of your misconceptions and rather than acknowledge the fact . . . you're 'out for a while'. Take your time, don't hurry back.
 
Last edited:

andygrey

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
3,446
Location
West Oxfordshire
Er yes, I've said all that many times.



The principle I'm trying to get over is why the spey line is different from the shooting head line. The specialist SH's weight is at the front of the taper, the specialist spey is towards the rear of it. You do accept that there is a difference?



It's not an error! Of course I know about the various form of shooting heads for salmon - I use them! And of course there are some used for single handers too. As usual we're just talking across each other.

But the kind of shooting head designed for distance overhead casting is not the same as a spey line head is it? They're different beasts designed for different purposes. The skagits and the scandis are modern variants of real shooting head designed to allow them to be spey and roll cast but they're not real shooting heads, they're hybrids.

Anyway, as always, the hounds are baying and this thread is getting ugly again. So I'm out of it for a while.
Presumably the 'hounds' are those who have the temerity to challenge your misconceptions and contradictory statements...
 

lhomme

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
4,768
Location
Antwerp
Here's the profile of a Guideline compact "power" taper shooting head.

guideline-power-taper-compact-rtg-shooting-heads-detail.jpg

triple-d-densities.png


But it's up to you how you use them, overhead or spey cast. Tangled can even cast them with the bulk of the weight in front, if that suits him.
 
Last edited:

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
6,502
Is there a double handed rod, or even a single handed rod that doesn'i handle an adapted line to present a lure /fly/tube etc.?

No. But if you and others prefer to miss the point being made, there's not much I can do about it.
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
45,451
No. But if you and others prefer to miss the point being made, there's not much I can do about it.

The point wasn't missed, it was questioned, and it's you that preferred to do the missing.

You make statements with an assumed authority that are very questionable, and get ratty when it's pointed out that they are not quite right.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
6,502
The point wasn't missed, it was questioned, and it's you that preferred to do the missing.

You make statements with an assumed authority that are very questionable, and get ratty when it's pointed out that they are not quite right.
It's really hard to be wrong about something that you haven't yet understood or addressed. You've simply not got it. You do this for pages and pages, not reading, not understanding, misinterpreting and blowing hot air. It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, or what thread you participate in, you form a fixed and often wrong opinion, can't see any other side and never learn anything.

So, yeh, I get ratty when you do that.

No more from me unless someone brings some actual information. This personal stuff is just plain boring.
 

ohanzee

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
45,451
It's really hard to be wrong about something that you haven't yet understood or addressed. You've simply not got it. You do this for pages and pages, not reading, not understanding, misinterpreting and blowing hot air. It doesn't seem to matter what the subject is, or what thread you participate in, you form a fixed and often wrong opinion, can't see any other side and never learn anything.

So, yeh, I get ratty when you do that.

No more from me unless someone brings some actual information. This personal stuff is just plain boring.

I'm sorry to be personal but it is you saying it.

For example: ''Double-handed rods are used to cast modified forms of shooting heads to chuck large lures using a spey cast''

What the is this nonsense meant to mean? it's neither correct nor useful, yet you present it as though you are an authority, it doesn't matter if it's me pointing it out or anyone, your collection of Googled snippets is only that, your assembling advice out of it without actual experience verges on fraud.
 

Tangled

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
6,502
I'm sorry to be personal but it is you saying it.

For example: ''Double-handed rods are used to cast modified forms of shooting heads to chuck large lures using a spey cast''

What the is this nonsense meant to mean? it's neither correct nor useful, yet you present it as though you are an authority, it doesn't matter if it's me pointing it out or anyone, your collection of Googled snippets is only that, your assembling advice out of it without actual experience verges on fraud.
There are large and obvious differences in line profile between a shooting head line and a spey line. There are fishing and casting reasons for them.

But I'm not going over it again simply because you prefer to misunderstand what is being said.
 
Top