Understanding Fly Lines

ohanzee

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I'd disagree, it would work really quite well reversed (with the running line removed). However, why you'd want to do this when you could just buy a purpose designed single handed Spey line straight off the shelf, is beyond me.

James

If you turn it round and the front taper becomes the rear taper, and you have the back of that at the tip ring you would need to add running line to shoot it, and trim back 43' of 'front taper/now tip', in other words you would be cutting the head off, turning it round and using it as a shooting head....which you could do with pretty much any line.
 

James9118

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It’s made me want to have a play around at making a shooting head for a start.
I'd strongly recommend this for anyone wanting to improve their distance. It fixes the carry at a certain point so the caster can concentrate on perfecting their tracking, haul etc.

I'd say I practice my distance casting with a shooting head more than anything else - another benefit is that you don't ruin good lines whilst improving.

Cheers, James
 

morayfisher

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If you turn it round and the front taper becomes the rear taper, and you have the back of that at the tip ring you would need to add running line to shoot it, and trim back 43' of 'front taper/now tip', in other words you would be cutting the head off, turning it round and using it as a shooting head....which you could do with pretty much any line.
I took it mean just removing the 17’ of running line to leave a 43’ front taper.
You could add running line but here’s a serious question:-
Would the backing act as your running line/could you successfully use backing as the running line for a shooting head?
 

James9118

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If you turn it round and the front taper becomes the rear taper, and you have the back of that at the tip ring you would need to add running line to shoot it, and trim back 43' of 'front taper/now tip', in other words you would be cutting the head off, turning it round and using it as a shooting head....which you could do with pretty much any line.
The person suggesting it, I think, would have just cut off the 17ft of running line and then would have a 73ft single handed Spey line (or an uber overhead shooting head). I suspect I know the person who did this, and if it is who I think it is I've also cast the line. It works really well. Not for beginners (or intermediates probably) though.

James
 

Tangled

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These are not all 'simple' questions with a simple answer.

They should be!

Upstream dry and nymph . . . how far are you casting on average . . . 20 to 35ft . . . 25 to 45ft? Are these heavy nymphs or tiny dry flies?
Let's say I'm averaging 35' but of course I sometime want more and sometimes less

don't forget my roll casting spiders

Stillwaters . . . a team of buzzers on a 20+ft leader . . . a beadchained Humungous?

There were two waters small and large so assume small means a couple of nymphs on a 12' leader and the large is heavier lures

Loch style, drifting boat . . . roll casting and dibbling a top dropper . . . fishing flies on the hang . . . need to cast distance . . . be able to change cast direction quickly?

Standard loch style, 3 wets in front hang top dropper

I'm not going for extremes in any of these, just pragmatic competence
 

Tangled

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As someone who gets asked for tackle recommendations more than most I've settled on a few basic picks...

Beginner - River (lets say 4wt and below) - Orvis Clearwater

Intermediate/Advanced caster - River - Barrio Small Stream or Rio LT

Beginner/Intermediate caster - Still Water (5wt up) - Orvis Clearwater

Intermediate/Advanced caster - Still Water - Barrio GT90 or Micheal Evans Arrowhead (if you can get one)

Pike fishing - Barrio Predator (23g/25g/28g depending on rod)

The above is based on what I know and use and aims to keep it simple. I often have days with complete novices or people with very limited experience so need stuff that can get them up and casting ASAP so we can get fishing. The choice of the Orvis Clearwater may seem like an odd one but for beginners and intermediate casters the +0.5 line rating does help.
can you explain how these lines do what you want them to do?
 

ohanzee

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The person suggesting it, I think, would have just cut off the 17ft of running line and then would have a 73ft single handed Spey line (or an uber overhead shooting head). I suspect I know the person who did this, and if it is who I think it is I've also cast the line. It works really well. Not for beginners (or intermediates probably) though.

James

Surely this would be a spey line that you would need to have all of out, I'm not sure I have a rod that would lift and pull a Dloop with 73'!

But I'm curious to try it :unsure:
 

James9118

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Surely this would be a spey line that you would need to have all of out, I'm not sure I have a rod that would lift and pull a Dloop with 73'!

But I'm curious to try it :unsure:
OK, I see where the confusion is coming from - it's just for moving a fixed length of line about with a Spey cast. Overhead you can aerialise all of it and shoot.
 
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ohanzee

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OK, I see where the confusion is coming from - it's just for moving a fixed length of line about with a Spey cast. Overhead you can serialise all of it and shoot.

I'm guessing this is possible but not terribly effective? or a MED would be better used in reverse!
 

James9118

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Yep, I'll refer you back to my post #157, it works OK but why would you want to when there's better options out there.
 

andygrey

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can you explain how these lines do what you want them to do?
The Clearwater is a good pick for a beginner as it has a slightly heavier head than 'rated' and is basically easier for a beginner to cast as loads the rod more (OK, OK... I know it's the caster that loads the rod, not the line but a heavier line can provide more feel and is not as critical in timing). It's also not particularly short-headed so doesn't dramatically change once you start to get into the rear taper unlike some more aggressive headed lines - so is good for beginners.
The Rio LT and Barrio Small Stream are slightly more 'forwarded loaded' making them easier to roll-cast at short range but not as much as the Clearwater, hence IMHO more of an 'Intermediate Caster' line.
As regards the Barrio GT90 and Arrowhead, the long rear taper makes them much more stable when carrying and again significantly reduces hinging when you hit the running line.

As far as the choice of the Barrio Predator... I've tried a whole load of different lines marketed as 'predator' or 'big fly'... (Orvis's offering is waaaay too light and Vision's like casting a brick) the Barrio gets it right as long as you match one of the 3 different weights to your rod and casting style.

Please bear in mind the above is based on my experience of teaching beginner or intermediate casters and lines that I have found to work well (I'm sure other instructors will have different views and favourites). When teaching more advanced casters the conversation turns more to the different merits of line profiles and can end up resembling this thread if your not careful!
 

ohanzee

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The Clearwater is a good pick for a beginner as it has a slightly heavier head than 'rated' and is basically easier for a beginner to cast as loads the rod more (OK, OK... I know it's the caster that loads the rod, not the line but a heavier line can provide more feel and is not as critical in timing). It's also not particularly short-headed so doesn't dramatically change once you start to get into the rear taper unlike some more aggressive headed lines - so is good for beginners.
The Rio LT and Barrio Small Stream are slightly more 'forwarded loaded' making them easier to roll-cast at short range but not as much as the Clearwater, hence IMHO more of an 'Intermediate Caster' line.
As regards the Barrio GT90 and Arrowhead, the long rear taper makes them much more stable when carrying and again significantly reduces hinging when you hit the running line.

As far as the choice of the Barrio Predator... I've tried a whole load of different lines marketed as 'predator' or 'big fly'... (Orvis's offering is waaaay too light and Vision's like casting a brick) the Barrio gets it right as long as you match one of the 3 different weights to your rod and casting style.

Please bear in mind the above is based on my experience of teaching beginner or intermediate casters and lines that I have found to work well (I'm sure other instructors will have different views and favourites). When teaching more advanced casters the conversation turns more to the different merits of line profiles and can end up resembling this thread if your not careful!

I didn't think you would answer that so easily, and my brain doesn't want to accept that I agree :) I want to think a line profile should correspond with the circumstances it functions in, and not levels of ability, but you arrived at something more workable than I did and I'm off for a rethink.
 

aenoon

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It's very good and I'll be nicking it, but what it does is explain the complexity well but without resolving it to practical choices.

It's not answering my simple questions that the majority of average UK trout anglers need an answer to.

River, upstream dry and nymph - overhead cast
River, down and across - roll casts
Small stillwater (shortish casts)
Large stillwater (longish casts)
Loch style, drifting boat - classic 3 wets
What about a simple double taper of whatever weight you require, and whatever sinking type you require?

Do all of the above with same line often.
The average UK trout angler should need nothing more.

Bert
 

ohanzee

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What about a simple double taper of whatever weight you require, and whatever sinking type you require?

Do all of the above with same line often.
The average UK trout angler should need nothing more.

Bert

If we were restricted to that we would get by but there is a broad and varied market out there to confuse..hence an 'understanding' thread.
 

Tangled

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What about a simple double taper of whatever weight you require, and whatever sinking type you require?

Do all of the above with same line often.
The average UK trout angler should need nothing more.

Bert

I use one line (and one rod) for all those forms - it's the GT90. I didn't choose that line because I knew it was good at anything in particular, I just read a few recommendations here.

Prior to that I used lines that others had recommended and when I first started I bought the cheapest I could find. I suspect that's how a lot of lines get sold.

Apart from an expensive line I had that made a a squealing noise on every cast that I couldn't get rid of, they've all been fine.

This thread is about finding out whether there are real gains to be made in choosing the different lines for different fishing circumstances.

It's very obvious that line densities make a difference, does line profile? And if it does, do you need to be at a particular level of casting competence to find them?
 

PaulD

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There is much to recommend a double taper - ideal for upstream dry and nymph, particularly for a small stream - spiders across and down, excellent - traditional loch style, great.

When I started I had one line, a Gladding Aerofloat floating DT, but I only fished in a limited way, I'd walk the banks of my local reservoir and fish wet flies maybe a couple of feet down. But, it's as you learn to fish that you realise that the line is the vehicle for your cast that allows you to deliver the fly and fish the 'method' where and how you like - the arrangement of profile and tapers becomes important. The examples I've given above for the use of the double taper . . . there's not a deal of 'casting' involved. Yes, I know you can cast a DT a long way and that the profile has been used by distance casters in competition very successfully, but for fishing, an appropriate WF will be more efficient for most anglers.
 

PaulD

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This thread is about finding out whether there are real gains to be made in choosing the different lines for different fishing circumstances.

It's very obvious that line densities make a difference, does line profile? And if it does, do you need to be at a particular level of casting competence to find them?

Yes there are real gains to be made, however . . .

If your 17 year old daughter (sorry offspring 'person') passed he, she or its driving test and wanted a car to get to work, would you purchase a Fiesta or a Ferrari? There are many people, for example, who'd like to be able to cast 20ft further but presently they can't cast 60ft well. Buying a new line with a differing taper will not make them cast 60ft well and add a further 20ft.
 

andygrey

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Extrapolate to it's natural conclusion and attach a 4oz lead to a thin running line... anyone could cast 100' plus with out any false casts!
 

Tangled

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Extrapolate to it's natural conclusion and attach a 4oz lead to a thin running line... anyone could cast 100' plus with out any false casts!

Yup, I've often thought of putting a spinning reel and a mepps on...
 
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