Understanding Mono

tangled

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I'd suggest the ones marked 'copolymer' are.
That wasn't what you asked but it seems likely that anything called a copolymer might well be. But so could all other monos we're sold.

What we're not told is why it matters a damn either way.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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I'd suggest the ones marked 'copolymer' are.
... and every single spool labelled 'copolymer' is telling you hee-haw, until you find a spool labelled 'homopolymer', against which to compare it.

Come back and tell us when you have found a spool of homopolymer.
 

original cormorant

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That wasn't what you asked but it seems likely that anything called a copolymer might well be. But so could all other monos we're sold.

What we're not told is why it matters a damn either way.
You started it.
I'm tempted to start a thread on "How has the understanding mono thread helped you catch more fish"
 

ohanzee

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... and every single spool labelled 'copolymer' is telling you hee-haw, until you find a spool labelled 'homopolymer', against which to compare it.

Come back and tell us when you have found a spool of homopolymer.
Perhaps homopolymer(if it was ever used as fishing line) no longer exists.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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So, after 1160 posts, we arrive at the point copolymer fishing line does, after all, exist!?
regards
Bert
It's not a 'thing', though, Bert.

Nylon is a thing.
Fluorocarbon is a thing.
Copolymer is marketing bollox.

A spool labelled 'copolymer' does not tell you what it is. It could just as easily be clingfilm or butadiene rubber or thousands of other copolymers. What you need to know is whether it is nylon or fluorocarbon. By convention, only nylon gets labelled copolymer, so if it is labelled copolymer, you can assume it is nylon. But why not just label it nylon to start with? It's marketing bollox, unless you are offered homopolymer as an alternative... and you are not.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Perhaps homopolymer(if it was ever used as fishing line) no longer exists.
Why bother with the science when it is not presented to you (across the board) in a useful way? Go with the empirical. Find the brands of nylon and/or fluorocarbon that work for you and don't worry about what polymers they may or may not be made from.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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I still think the myth of copolymer is mixed up in an association fallacy with low-diameter type nylons. They both came on the scene over the same time period in the late 1980s. 'Copolymer' became synonymous with low-diameter nylon, though they were 2 totally different properties of leader materials.

Even today, folk call spools of leader material by the name 'copolymer', even when no claim of being copolymer is made by the brand to which they are referring. What they mean is it is a low-diameter type nylon, such as Reflo Power, or Orvis Superstrong, or Rio Powerflex Plus, etc. None of those use the word 'copolymer' anywhere in their labelling, but I wager you will find them all referred to as 'copolymer' by anglers. What they mean is they are low-diameter, compared to the likes of Maxima Ultragreen, Drennan Subsurface, etc.

Mei theory, what is mein, by Anne Elk. 😜
 

aenoon

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It's not a 'thing', though, Bert.

Nylon is a thing.
Fluorocarbon is a thing.
Copolymer is marketing bollox.

A spool labelled 'copolymer' does not tell you what it is. It could just as easily be clingfilm or butadiene rubber or thousands of other copolymers. What you need to know is whether it is nylon or fluorocarbon. By convention, only nylon gets labelled copolymer, so if it is labelled copolymer, you can assume it is nylon. But why not just label it nylon to start with? It's marketing bollox, unless you are offered homopolymer as an alternative... and you are not.
Surely if spool says it is copolymer, then thats what it is. If it says flourocarbon, thats what it is, and if its says monofilament, then thats what it is.?
Marketing bollox or otherwise.
regards
Bert
 

ohanzee

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Why bother with the science when it is not presented to you (across the board) in a useful way? Go with the empirical. Find the brands of nylon and/or fluorocarbon that work for you and don't worry about what polymers they may or may not be made from.
Nylon is a blanket term a bit like 'steel', there are hundreds if not thousands of types and the blanket term doesn't really tell us anything more by using only it, I don't see any achievement in doing that.

Your 'low diameter type nylon' is an observation, a good one but it begs the question why manufacturers didn't use it to rack up the cost if that is their game, its also not a widely used term, if you went into the Glasgow Angling Centre' and asked for a spool of 'low diameter type nylon' it wouldn't get you far.

Having said that I'm not sure I have a better solution, other than live with the names manufacturers use, never found it to be a problem.
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Surely if spool says it is copolymer, then thats what it is. If it says flourocarbon, thats what it is, and if its says monofilament, then thats what it is.?
Marketing bollox or otherwise.
regards
Bert
It's all monofilament - nylon, fluorocarbon - all of it, except braid.

If I offer you a spool of clingfilm and I tell you it is copolymer (which clingfilm is), then you would be happy making up a leader from it?

Or if I offer you a spool of monofilament and tell you it is copolymer, you will be happy to take it, thinking it is not fluorocarbon, when what I have given you is copolymeric fluorocarbon?

Copolymer is not a word that tells us what the material is. Nylon and fluorocarbon are the two materials we use for leaders.

If it says copolymer on the spool, what material do you expect it to contain? (And don't say copolymer, because copolymer is not a material.)
 

aenoon

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It's all monofilament - nylon, fluorocarbon - all of it, except braid.

If I offer you a spool of clingfilm and I tell you it is copolymer (which clingfilm is), then you would be happy making up a leader from it?

Or if I offer you a spool of monofilament and tell you it is copolymer, you will be happy to take it, thinking it is not fluorocarbon, when what I have given you is copolymeric fluorocarbon?

Copolymer is not a word that tells us what the material is. Nylon and fluorocarbon are the two materials we use for leaders.

If it says copolymer on the spool, what material do you expect it to contain? (And don't say copolymer, because copolymer is not a material.)
So it says braid on the spool, what do you expect it to be?
Rapunzels hair?
I have dozens of fishing rods, some cane, some greenheart, some glass, some fibre glass, some boron, some carbon, thing is, they are all fishing rods.
Nylon is the similar generic term for leader material anglers use,
many of them will be copolymer, many monofilament, many flourocarbon, as described on the spool.
Would never try to make a leader out of clingfilm though, would be way too thick after I had furled or braided it. Good for wrapping cooked food in though.
regards
Bert
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Nylon is a blanket term a bit like 'steel', there are hundreds if not thousands of types
What does it matter how many different nylons there are? All we need to know is: firstly... nylon or fluorocarbon? Secondly... breaking strain vs diameter. Then there will be marketing bollox involving 'resin impregnation' or whatever magical extras... and that is where our own empirical findings in the field will tell us if the stuff is for us or not.

The point of using the term nylon is because it is equivalent to the term fluorocarbon. The two main monofilaments we use are nylon and fluorocarbon. The spools should be labelled either nylon or fluorocarbon. That's it.

Your 'low diameter type nylon'... its also not a widely used term, if you went into the Glasgow Angling Centre' and asked for a spool of 'low diameter type nylon' it wouldn't get you far.
How do you know? Have you tried it? A lot of the guys I fish with understand what 'low-diameter' nylons are. Next time I am in the Edinburgh Angling Centre (we have one too, you know 😜) I will ask them. I accept there is a good chance they will think I must mean 'copolymer', like everyone on here seems to! 🤪

Anyroad, it's not just an observation. There are quite clearly 2 types of nylon: standard and 'low diameter', as I am calling it.



6 lb stroft = 0.155 mm diameter
6 lb Maxima = 0.22 mm diameter

I would be OK using the 6 lb Stroft for stillwater dry fly, but I wouldn't dream of using it for loch salmon and sea trout fishing. Too fragile and prone to shock breaks. The 6 lb Maxima - too thick for me for stillwater dry fly, but I'd trust it with my life for loch sea trout and salmon fishing.

They are two very different materials. Both nylon (we presume) and it matters not in the slightest whether either or both are homopolymer or copolymer. What matters is that the Stroft is in the camp of the 'low-diameter' types, as I am calling them. If you can come up with a better term, feel free to give us it.

Why do you use Stroft, rather than Maxima?
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Nylon is the similar generic term for leader material anglers use
Nylon is a generic term - for polyamide, not for leader materials, on account of us also using fluorocarbon for leaders. You surely wouldn't call a spool of fluorocarbon 'nylon', would you?

many of them will be copolymer, many monofilament, many flourocarbon, as described on the spool.
All our leader materials are monofilament. However, the description on the spool often leaves a lot to be worked out by the angler...



Maybe the barcode tells us more. It's Morse code, if you can read it?
 

Cap'n Fishy

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So it says braid on the spool, what do you expect it to be?
Rapunzels hair?
So, if it says copolymer on the spool, what do you expect it to be?

Don't say copolymer, because that is not a 'thing'. If it says copolymer on the spool, it is going to be either nylon or fluorocarbon. If it is going to be either nylon or fluorocarbon, then why not put nylon or fluorocarbon on the spool?
 

aenoon

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Dont know about you, but when I am out and about, irrespective of river or loch, and another angler enquires what leader material I am using, it always goes along the lines of "what nylon you using", dont think my reply would ever be polyamide!
Answer would be makers name, and maybe the short description of flouro, or double strength, or copolymer. Depending on where, and what I was fishing for.
Seems to be understood by those asking, without the need for the technical nicieties!
regards
Bert
 

PaulD

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... and every single spool labelled 'copolymer' is telling you hee-haw, until you find a spool labelled 'homopolymer', against which to compare it.

Come back and tell us when you have found a spool of homopolymer.
How about comparing Maxima Clear and Rio Powerflex? Maxima USA tell me via email that they do not produce any copolymer lines. Maxima Clear is a homopolymer construction. Rio Powerflex is a stated copolymer.

The average stated diameter of Maxima Clear, 6lb BS, 0.009" - or 2X for those of us who like to tie our own tapered leaders.

The average stated diameter of 0.009" - or 2X for Rio PowerFlex, gives us a stated BS of 10lb!

Being someone who often fishes flies around size 18, I need to tie leaders with a 6X point - 0.005" - in Maxima Clear those dimensions provide me with a stated breaking strain of 2lb, whereas RioPowerflex states 3.4lb. In addition, Maxima Clear does not have the flexibility of RioPowerflex for such a fine point.
Hence, for my fishing, I do not tie flies to Maxima Clear, because of its stated diameters and breaking strain it's like fishing with 'tarry rope'. Because of its stiffness and diameters I use Maxima Clear to tie the butt end of leaders.
 
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PaulD

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. . . such as Reflo Power, or Orvis Superstrong, or Rio Powerflex Plus, etc. None of those use the word 'copolymer' anywhere in their labelling, but I wager you will find them all referred to as 'copolymer' by anglers.
Odd . . . wonder why I refer to Rio PowerFlex as 'copolymer'?

RioPowerflex.jpg.png
 

tangled

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And then of course it all slips into farce, when it's revealed that all nylon mono is, in fact, copolymer.


Maxima Ultragreen Copolymer Monofilament 300-600 Yard Guide Spools


Or is it just yet more marketing bollox? With no one able to know what the stuff is and just making stuff up?

Maxima's own site
SEARCH MAXIMA
0 Search Results for Copolymer

Sorry, nothing to display.
 
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