Understanding Mono

ohanzee

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What do you not get? He let the line go in the nick of time... otherwise he would have got broke. In other words, he let the line go before he got broke.

Jeezo!

I had another look and that does make sense, it was not the clearest, partly because you appeared to be saying that he got broke...twice.

Still, as a general rule, and it is a relevant point..to pre huff posts, above 45 degrees inverts the leverage.
 

aenoon

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I had another look and that does make sense, it was not the clearest, partly because you appeared to be saying that he got broke...twice.

Still, as a general rule, and it is a relevant point..to pre huff posts, above 45 degrees inverts the leverage.
Now that one you really do need to explain.
In another life inverted leverage would mean I made a few bob, or lost it!
Where does it apply to a fishing rod, line, and fish on the end?
regards
Bert
 

ohanzee

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Now that one you really do need to explain.
In another life inverted leverage would mean I made a few bob, or lost it!
Where does it apply to a fishing rod, line, and fish on the end?
regards
Bert

Perhaps the wrong term?..get someone to hold the rod, you hold the fly or end of the line, ask them to lower the rod, you pull..you will notice if you have a good grip you can pull the rod around or out of their hand, then ask then to raise the tip to above 45 degrees, and you will notice that suddenly no matter how hard you try the rod just bends and the holder has total control, its a rod, this is what it does, its good way to get kids to appreciate leverage on fish.

You can reverse this, you hold the rod, tie the tippet to a fence, make the line slack enough to have the rod above 45 degrees and pull back, try to break it...can't because the rod bends, now tighten the line with the rod straight and pull up...ping, note how easy it snaps.

Why is the 45 degrees so acute?
 

aenoon

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Perhaps the wrong term?..get someone to hold the rod, you hold the fly or end of the line, ask them to lower the rod, you pull..you will notice if you have a good grip you can pull the rod around or out of their hand, then ask then to raise the tip to above 45 degrees, and you will notice that suddenly no matter how hard you try the rod just bends and the holder has total control, its a rod, this is what it does, its good way to get kids to appreciate leverage on fish.

You can reverse this, you hold the rod, tie the tippet to a fence, make the line slack enough to have the rod above 45 degrees and pull back, try to break it...can't because the rod bends, now tighten the line with the rod straight and pull up...ping, note how easy it snaps.

Why is the 45 degrees so acute?
Its not.
Get your buns into a blue water boat, hook a big marlin, sit in chair for a couple of hours, then come back with a 45degrees argument!
More realistically, for you, take a double hander 14' salmon rod out, and actually hook one.
Or indeed do same with a 9' #8 single handed rod, LINE WILL NOT BREAK ABOVE 45% OF ROD ANGLE IN ANY OF THESE EXAMPLES!
Tying line to fixed point as per your example, is about as close to reality as car manufacturers mileage figures.
regards
Bert
 

ohanzee

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LINE WILL NOT BREAK ABOVE 45% OF ROD ANGLE IN ANY OF THESE EXAMPLES!

That was my point, it breaks below 45 degrees.

Another example, I lifted a barn door, 2 actually, about a third of a ton in each, to vertical, I used a pinch bar levered off a block of wood, lifted it 4 inches, the first 4 inched was a heave, block in and repeat, and so on until it was just above 45 degrees, from there I pushed it up to vertical, not much effort, simple engineering principle.
 

speytime

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If I've got this right I don't get what benefit 45 would be in that particular scenario, he's holding the rod 90 degree relative to the fish giving it all the cushioning possible.
If a fish dives down I keep the rod close to the water, if said fish takes a run towards me there's more chance of getting slack, holding the rod at 45 I'm robing myself out of available leverage, low near water gives me a better chance of keeping the line tight between lifting the rod and hand lining, I'm also using the power of the lower blank.
Of course I'll happily stand corrected on my theory.

Al
 

aenoon

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That was my point, it breaks below 45 degrees.

Another example, I lifted a barn door, 2 actually, about a third of a ton in each, to vertical, I used a pinch bar levered off a block of wood, lifted it 4 inches, the first 4 inched was a heave, block in and repeat, and so on until it was just above 45 degrees, from there I pushed it up to vertical, not much effort, simple engineering principle."

Yep, oft used principle, lever and fulcrum mechanics, the effort of force the user applies multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum must equal the load force multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum.
However, the lever is normally at a very low angle, say up to 10 degrees is it not?
Still trying to relate that to the assertion that plus or minus 45 degrees will cause line breakage whilst fishing?
a moving target attached to a moving lever, by a stretchy anchor, with no fulcrum?
Ok. as before, get out and try it.
regards
Bert
 

aenoon

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That was my point, it breaks below 45 degrees.

Another example, I lifted a barn door, 2 actually, about a third of a ton in each, to vertical, I used a pinch bar levered off a block of wood, lifted it 4 inches, the first 4 inched was a heave, block in and repeat, and so on until it was just above 45 degrees, from there I pushed it up to vertical, not much effort, simple engineering principle.
Yep, oft used principle, lever and fulcrum mechanics, the effort of force the user applies multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum must equal the load force multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum.
However, the lever is normally at a very low angle, say up to 10 degrees is it not?
Still trying to relate that to the assertion that plus or minus 45 degrees will cause line breakage whilst fishing?
a moving target attached to a moving lever, by a stretchy anchor, with no fulcrum?
Ok. as before, get out and try it.
regards
Bert[/QUOTE]
 

ohanzee

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Yep, oft used principle, lever and fulcrum mechanics, the effort of force the user applies multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum must equal the load force multiplied by its distance to the fulcrum.
However, the lever is normally at a very low angle, say up to 10 degrees is it not?
Still trying to relate that to the assertion that plus or minus 45 degrees will cause line breakage whilst fishing?
a moving target attached to a moving lever, by a stretchy anchor, with no fulcrum?
Ok. as before, get out and try it.
regards
Bert
[/QUOTE]

I have done, as a casting instruction demo, I have to admit I thought it was common knowledge, I was just explaining how to do a quick test at home, not you, just anyone that is curious, you can hook a fly to a fence and try it anytime.

The point though is the protection of the tippet...understanding mono thread...understanding the leverage on the tippet I think is part of that.
 

tangled

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It seems to me we're in danger of getting a few things confused here. It's the angle that the line makes at the rod tip that matters and it's only partially, if anything, about leverage.

We all know that if you need to pull for a break you have to point the rod directly down the line so that the rod is not involved at all in the force being applied. That tells us that the rod does not amplify the force applied on the fish, in fact it reduces it significantly - it's a shock absorber.

We 'keep the rod up' (a phrase shouted at every novice) to make sure that the fish can apply less direct force on the system not more - the rod is acting as a spring, not a lever.

If anything, the rod is acting as a force indicator for the angler; when the fish makes a violent run the fish applies force at the fulcrum enough for the angler to feel that the rod needs the relief of letting out line to protect it.

If the rod was a stiff, unbendable beam at a fixed fulcrum, applying force at 45 degrees you'd need a rope to fish with - we call those things cranes.
 
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Cap'n Fishy

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I had another look and that does make sense, it was not the clearest, partly because you appeared to be saying that he got broke...twice.

It was clear enough to anyone who wasn't looking to try and make an unfounded argument out of it! You chose to misinterpret it... and after I explained it, you chose to misinterpret it again! Having misinterpreted it, you also chose to have a pop at the angler, who was doing nothing wrong!

Still, as a general rule, and it is a relevant point..to pre huff posts, above 45 degrees inverts the leverage.

You mean the pre-pointing out to you that you were talking bollox posts. 🤪

Thanks for your advice. I will try to remember to take a protractor out with me next time, so I can keep a close watch on my angles. :rolleyes:

I think you would get broke 2 seconds after hooking one of those hot guys. 🤭 It's quite common to stick the rod under the water to lead the line safely round the hull of the boat and the outboard motor. The butt section of the rod is kept at about 90 degrees to the line - give or take... as long as it is nowhere near either 0 degrees or 180 degrees it gets the job done without breaking or snagging...










I've done the same thing many times to avoid snagging the boat or outboard.

The correct angle is the correct angle, and is not necessarily achieved by "keeping the rod high"...







At other times the correct angle might be 60 or 45 or 30 degrees or some other angle - it depends on where the fish is relative to the boat and what it is up to. Then there is laying the rod sideways-on to the water to put side-strain on and steer the fish away from weed-beds, tree roots, etc. Finally, as the fish is being netted, the rod tip is high and the angle 'hairpins' in order to net it.

I suggest again that you stick to your bank fishing and don't try and tell boat fishers how to boat fish. ;)
 
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Scotty Mitchell

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It was clear enough to anyone who wasn't looking to try and make an unfounded argument out of it! You chose to misinterpret it... and after I explained it, you chose to misinterpret it again! Having misinterpreted it, you also chose to have a pop at the angler, who was doing nothing wrong!



You mean the pre-pointing out to you that you were talking bollox posts. 🤪

Thanks for your advice. I will try to remember to take a protractor out with me next time, so I can keep a close watch on my angles. :rolleyes:

I think you would get broke 2 seconds after hooking one of those hot guys. 🤭 It's quite common to stick the rod under the water to lead the line safely round the hull of the boat and the outboard motor. The butt section of the rod is kept at about 90 degrees to the line - give or take... as long as it is nowhere near either 0 degrees or 180 degrees it gets the job done without breaking or snagging..










I've done the same thing many times to avoid snagging the boat or outboard.

The correct angle is the correct angle, and is not necessarily achieved by "keeping the rod high"...







Then there is laying the rod sideways-on to the water to put side-strain on and steer the fish away from weed-beds, tree roots, etc.

I suggest again that you stick to your bank fishing and don't try and tell boat fishers how to boat fish. ;)

Being an ex regular boat angler now forced by injury to the bank, those pics made me miss it for the first time in a while. The rod in the water stunt, if you can't get your head around that then stay out of the boat, or hope to catch only small fish. I've had to employ that on hard going fish of 3lb that wouldn't play ball!
I also miss other thrills like being in a boat alone, catching fish on the windward shore and being greedy with the drift, then hooking one 😁.
Seeing a good fish head under the boat straight for the drogue is another old favourite 😁. Rod high doesn't work here the same.
The bank has its own challenges right enough, for me mainly Heather, how I hate it, but the advice of keep the rod high, is usually the advice to follow.
 

Wee Jimmy

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I think this year must be setting new records for seeing the backing go out.The fish all seem to have a rocket up their arse.Talk about tackle being tested to the limit.If there are any flaws in your knots or playing technique,forget it,you will be stitched up like a kipper...👍

I was done by one the other day when it made a beeline for a jumble of submerged roots.Even with maximum side strain,the rod was bent like a fckin horseshoe...there was no stopping it.
 
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Cap'n Fishy

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I think this year must be setting new records for seeing the backing go out.The fish all seem to have a rocket up their arse.Talk about tackle being tested to the limit.If there are any flaws in your knots or playing technique,forget it,you will be stitched up like a kipper...👍

Aye - the science and technicalities of leverage as a function of the exact angle of the rod... are the least of your concerns when you are concentrating on just hanging on! 😜
 

Cap'n Fishy

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The bank has its own challenges right enough, for me mainly Heather, how I hate it, but the advice of keep the rod high, is usually the advice to follow.

Aye, when I am on the bank, I generally keep the rod high. Bank fishing is more 2-dimensional - you've got forwards, backward, left and right. Boat fishing is more 3-dimensional. you've got forwards, backward, left and right... and up and down! 😜
 

3lbgrayling

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That fish I caught on thursday night.had me run through the full gambit of tactics. 1st it had me into backing at breakneck speed.trying to make sure loose line did not snag (rod up)
2nd it kited to the left ,backing still out.(side strain)
3rd it had 3-4 full out of the water leaps (Ease tension)
4th line back on reel.Fish under boat (rod tip under water)
5th netting fish(rod up)

Line 8lb low dia nylon as was fishing Dries.

Jim
 

Cap'n Fishy

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Line 8lb low dia nylon as was fishing Dries.

Jim

I've been on 7 lb 3 oz Tectan Premium Plus. Stated 0.18 mm/measured 0.201 mm. It's been fantastic, the stresses and strains it has put up with over the last month. Pity they don't make it any more. Fortunately I still have 600 m of it! 👍

My star performer of recent did things in an unusual order. First it did 2 full circles of the boat in 'scalded cat' mode, with all spray riding up the line. Then it decided to go for a run and got behind the boat and took 60 yards out. Even after I got it back it wasn't for coming in. We were both thinking it must be hooked up the arse, but when it finally came in it was in the mooth! And it wasn't even one of the bigger fish!

I did hook one that promised to be even more spectacular, judging by its initial speed. It shot under the boat, and I managed to get the rod under and lead it clear of the hull and motor, and it then headed-off upwind. But as I stood up and turned round to keep on top of it, I somehow managed to get the line round my seat. I could see what was coming, and I tried to clear it, but I went the wrong way and put a second loop in. Doh! ☹ Ping!
 
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