Want slightly more distance

Dingbat

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Surely to get x amount weight over 30ft a Dt and WF are exactly the same diameter before the rear taper?
Why would a Dt be thinner?

Al
its the density of the material that makes the weight - the idea about being thinner is to make it less air resistant. The idea is to get a thin DT, not that the DT is thinner per se.
 

Rob Edmunds

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Sunray lines are absolutely sh!te....the guy who promotes them ( sorry I don't know his name) is in my opinion an ***** and the customer service abhorrent.

Intermediate and sinking lines do cast better than a floater, they are thinner so generate more line speed and greater distance ....surely that's bl00dy obvious ??

But go up a line weight and it's easier still.....

Stick an #8 weight floater through a 7 weight rod and it will cast well .....

Put an #8 weight Di3 through the same 7 weight rod and it will cast even better than the #8 weight floater.

Guess what.....a thinner #8 DI7 casts better still
 

Rob Edmunds

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Just buy an Airflo 40+ and knock yourself (and the fish...) out!
A brick-on-a-string will generally cast further for most... however I'm yet to meet any fly fisherman who wouldn't benefit from a casting lesson...
Rubbish....spend more time on the water fishing and analyse your own faults....you don't need lessons it's a waste in my opinion.....watch videos on YouTube with Dimon Galsworth or Tim Rajeff, then practice, practice and practice......20 mins a night for a month and the difference will be huge

An Airflo 40+ is a manufactured shooting head... ...just more user friendly and lacks ultimate distance that you can get with a true shooting head with strength or amnesia running line

The 40+ serves a purpose, and is excellent for its given purpose.....

For distance its ideal, for short delicate work absolutely rubbish.....

But for reservoir bank fishing distance is key 90% of the time ....Not presentation......yes this will not appeal to many but its true...distance catches more fish from the bank

Give me distance every time
 
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Rob Edmunds

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Paul, practice is key not lessons.

David Beckham can tell me how to kick a ball, but without thousands of hours practice and a natural ability I'm screwed...

I'm self taught and cast further than most instructors I know...happy to go against anyone as regards distance and feel I will hold my own

Drive a car round a field for a month and you'll have a good idea of how to drive.....I passed my test doing just that at 17 and a half ... 1st time after just 10 lessons....

30 years on no crashes and I drive 15,000 miles a year....I guess I'm lucky

So are you saying instructional casting videos on YouTube don't help ??

I thought some ( the ones I mentioned ie Galsworth and Rajeff) are pretty informative and pretty much spot on at giving advice on casting so dispense with the need and cost of an instructor

Tell you what...how the fvck did I ever win so many matches or catch so many fish when I'm self taught...??
 
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speytime

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I'm not sure I know anyone that's had single handed lessons, i wouldn't like my life to depend on it, I've no doubt many faults could be picked in my self taught, long practiced casting, but I can cast as far as I need effortlessly and rarely get tangles.
I even catch the odd fish 😁
I think I'd benefit from a lesson more now than ever before, i think I'd be able to understand and change/adapt as required better than I could have in the past.

I did get lessons with a switch rod and 14/15ft rods that taught me casting is as much about feel + mechanics that transfered back to sh casting and improved that 😁
I do intend to get a hours lesson sometime in the near future, it's a matter of time.

Al
 

PaulD

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Paul, practice is key not lessons.
Depends if you know what it is you're practising and aren't merely 'practising' the faults. Many of the available online videos are excellent but can you see yourself cast? Are you able to see yourself from the side, back, front?

I too was self taught, starting as a 16 year old in 1968 and, like you, over time, I could cast a long line but casting a long line doesn't actually mean you cast well or efficiently. About 20 years ago I became interested in gaining more understanding of casting and becoming a better allround caster and angler. I did not set out to be an instructor but that happened 'along the journey'.

Similarly, I know a lot of competition anglers who, when it comes to casting, couldn't hit a cow's arse with a spade and visiting any fishery, the banks and boats are often populated with 'stick wavers' and 'line throwers' who, according to you, need to spend more time practising their stick waving and line throwing.

So, well done you for being able to throw a longer line than many instructors and congratulations on winning so many matches and catching a lot of fish, But sadly, not everyone is as independently talented as you and many, who've splashed a considerable amount of cash on rods, reels and lines, find investing in an hour's personal tuition a rewarding and worthwhile experience.
 

fishing hobo

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Rubbish....spend more time on the water fishing and analyse your own faults....you don't need lessons it's a waste in my opinion.....watch videos on YouTube with Dimon Galsworth or Tim Rajeff, then practice, practice and practice......20 mins a night for a month and the difference will be huge

An Airflo 40+ is a manufactured shooting head... ...just more user friendly and lacks ultimate distance that you can get with a true shooting head with strength or amnesia running line

The 40+ serves a purpose, and is excellent for its given purpose.....

For distance its ideal, for short delicate work absolutely rubbish.....

But for reservoir bank fishing distance is key 90% of the time ....Not presentation......yes this will not appeal to many but its true...distance catches more fish from the bank

Give me distance every time
Rob, you are probably an exception than the rule. If I didn't get instructions and learn how to analyse casting errors I will still be crap.
 

ohanzee

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In practical fishing scenarios going up a line weight helps.. .......it really is as simple as that..
I can't disagree with this but it needs proper explanation, most don't understand the length to weight relationship they need, and want to cast further(what ever that is) but can't carry more than 40' in the air, they are effectively unable to handle enough line to make a longer cast.

I also agree the predictable call of 'get instruction' is not always the answer, its often put in a way that suggests a couple of lessons will have you casting perfectly, you can't learn it all in a couple of lessons and that expectation can sort of devalue the sophistication of the skill.
 

PaulD

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I also agree the predictable call of 'get instruction' is not always the answer, its often put in a way that suggests a couple of lessons will have you casting perfectly, you can't learn it all in a couple of lessons and that expectation can sort of devalue the sophistication of the skill.
The value of lessons for a beginner is to introduce them to the key principles of fly casting and make them aware of how their interrelation combines to produce the cast. And no, Mr or Ms Beginner aren't going to knit it all together with one, two or three lessons, they're not going to be producing consistent loops and presenting a fly at 25 yards. It needs practice and you need to know what you're practising, what you are trying to achieve and be able to understand why something might not be happening correctly. It's the role and expertise of the instructor that is helpful with the latter - to be able to spot and address what aspect/s of the casting stroke need attention and practice. Standing on a playing field or watching a video without knowing what's causing the issue with your casting stroke is at best a 'Hit or Miss' chance.

The generally accepted 5 principles are;
1. Eliminate slack line
2. Timing - 2 pauses - short line, short pause - longer line, longer pause
3. Power application - a smooth stroke - start slow, finish fast
4. A straight line path - rod tip /line 180 degrees
5. Variable casting stroke - longer the line , the longer the stroke.

Those are the 'Headlines' and there's a lot of 'text' under each Headline. Beginner doesn't need to hear all the headlines in the first lesson let alone be subjected to a detailed discussion of the text, Beginner won't remember it, the 'language' will be foreign to him. But, if at the end of the first lesson, Beginner is comfortable with his grip and stance, knows that his line needs to be under tension at the start of his cast and that there are, and can create, two definite 'stops' and the stops create a loop, then Beginner has made a good start and the instructor can demonstrate exercises that will reinforce what he's experienced in the lesson.

The difficulty as an instructor is when 'experienced caster' comes for a lesson because he wants to cast further but can't consistently do what we've done with beginner in Lesson 1.
 

speytime

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The thing is though anyone that's reasonably savy can pick it up in no time, tight loops aren't essential.
Fwiw I could drive a car/van a long time before I ever seen an instructor.

I'm an advocate of lessons to be clear, my brother got my dad fishing gear last year I got the job of learning him to cast, i told him I'm no in a position to be teaching anyone, if i were you I'd get a few lessons.... "No I'm not getting lessons" was the reply indignantly, probably my own attitude tbh, anyway after 20/30 minutes he could put out a line, when we fish together and catches his share of fish, that's all he wants.

Imho lessons are well worth getting but not essential, you'll learn, humans are experts at picking stuff up.

Al
 
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Dingbat

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The generally accepted 5 principles are;
1. Eliminate slack line
2. Timing - 2 pauses - short line, short pause - longer line, longer pause
3. Power application - a smooth stroke - start slow, finish fast
4. A straight line path - rod tip /line 180 degrees
5. Variable casting stroke - longer the line , the longer the stroke.
I can relate to that and my casting benefits hugely from my day job - but i was given lessons from an early age.

Dominatrix-tatler-13apr16_rex_b.jpg
 

karlsson

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Paul, practice is key not lessons.

David Beckham can tell me how to kick a ball, but without thousands of hours practice and a natural ability I'm screwed...

I'm self taught and cast further than most instructors I know...happy to go against anyone as regards distance and feel I will hold my own

Drive a car round a field for a month and you'll have a good idea of how to drive.....I passed my test doing just that at 17 and a half ... 1st time after just 10 lessons....

30 years on no crashes and I drive 15,000 miles a year....I guess I'm lucky

So are you saying instructional casting videos on YouTube don't help ??

I thought some ( the ones I mentioned ie Galsworth and Rajeff) are pretty informative and pretty much spot on at giving advice on casting so dispense with the need and cost of an instructor

Tell you what...how the fvck did I ever win so many matches or catch so many fish when I'm self taught...??
Like James, I'm all up for a cast :)

Both Simon and Tim are certified instructors and they both charge for their time, I know I have had them both give courses here, and I call both friends. That they have free clips on the net, is just that, a free lesson (and a great way to promote their brands ;-)). What is missing is the interaction between instructor and student, and the keen eye of the instructor to spot the faults and give a good correction in real time, rather than you iron them in by spending 1000's of hours practicng things wrong.. Yes humans are great at picking up things, usually the wrong ones, that's why we have experience ;-)

Btw. how many instructors do you know? I cast further than most I know too, but there's a reason for that ;-)

Aaaand, you don't need to be able to cast to catch fish, not even to win competitions, it just helps in the long run, and can be alot of fun....

Cheers
Lasse
 

ohanzee

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The difficulty as an instructor is when 'experienced caster' comes for a lesson because he wants to cast further but can't consistently do what we've done with beginner in Lesson 1.
That was one of my points, and I didn't suggest instruction was a bad idea, with the right expectations its always a good idea, I just think its not always the instant solution it appears as to people asking on forums.
I did my ticket for a personal challenge and to help others in a club situation, it was open to all and free, I never had visions of making money because I never saw an hours lesson fitting into a day as viable for me, the result though was a really effective learning environment, best I have seen, group and one to one learning once a week with a bunch of guys that became friends, pretty much intrinsically motivated by default, free and at times just a laugh, I got to see raw beginners go to master level instructor and many that er..learned slower or wanted different things.
What I see now is new comers wanting answers without the access to experience like this, be that paid or not, and I'm not sure they particularly want the level of understanding they often get offered, they have just taken an interest and starting out they are faced with more information than they need from well meaning but diverse levels of experience, then told they need to pay some guy they never met to tell them how to do it properly, its suddenly a lot to take on.
Most of my learning took place just hanging out with really good casters, asking when needed is the best time to get a thing that you might not get when someone else thinks is the best time, it takes ages to put it all together and I personally find it a drag being taught full on without a bit of time spent just discussing it and playing.
I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that forum communication and contacts never spread into casting clubs, taking the questions into reality at a local park somewhere where members could just meet, I have done it a few times and there are meets but its something that doesn't happen at the level that is actually needed, or in the casual spontaneous way that it easily could, and I see no reason why, I think there is a lot of space between hiring an instructor and trying to interpret an answer to a question on a forum.
 

PaulD

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. . . . its not always the instant solution it appears as to people asking on forums.
. . . What I see now is new comers wanting answers without the access to experience like this, be that paid or not, and I'm not sure they particularly want the level of understanding they often get offered, they have just taken an interest and starting out they are faced with more information than they need from well meaning but diverse levels of experience, . . . .
. . . . personally find it a drag being taught full on without a bit of time spent just discussing it and playing.
You raise some very valid points.

Getting a lesson or a few is not an instant solution as casting well cannot be achieved instantly and seeking advice on an internet forum where nobody has seen you cast is a forlorn hope.

Again, the value of personal instruction is about dialogue, the instruction, the detail and the language needs to be geared towards the experience and needs of the client - 'curing' tailing loops with a beginner isn't going to happen if the discussion revolves around transverse waves!

Pace, 'being taught full on' . . . is a truly important issue. The learning attention span most adults can demonstrate is around 20 minutes, couple that with the often unfamiliar physical action of casting and you run the risk of task exhaustion.
 

ohanzee

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You raise some very valid points.

Getting a lesson or a few is not an instant solution as casting well cannot be achieved instantly and seeking advice on an internet forum where nobody has seen you cast is a forlorn hope.

Again, the value of personal instruction is about dialogue, the instruction, the detail and the language needs to be geared towards the experience and needs of the client - 'curing' tailing loops with a beginner isn't going to happen if the discussion revolves around transverse waves!

Pace, 'being taught full on' . . . is a truly important issue. The learning attention span most adults can demonstrate is around 20 minutes, couple that with the often unfamiliar physical action of casting and you run the risk of task exhaustion.
Yes and then couple that with having to pack in their expectation of value for money into an hour, I personally think this formula works against learning and making a living.
I have suggested other ways to those within the casting organisations and found pretty strong resistance to change, I have a bit of space at home now and can almost run a few private classes in ceramics and some other popular bits, its interesting to compare the expectations, structure, pace and so on for all day courses that due to just a simple change in formula you can make an actual living doing it.
 

Rob Edmunds

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James

I didn't say I'd beat you as regards distance, your a tournament caster aren't you ??

All I'm saying is that I can throw a pretty good line compared to most anglers and the instructors I know, and hold my own

But yeah more than happy to meet up for a cast, or fish....because if you can help me cast further then great..
 
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