Welded/braided loop failure - advice?

shropshire_lad

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Hi Chaps,

So I finally get my first fishing outing post-lockdown to Farmoor Reservoir. I'm a bit out of practice but think I have everything I need as it's a good hours' drive from home.

Arrive there, quite slow but a bit of occasional action from other fisherman. Two hours in, not so much as a touch. Then as I'm daydreaming the rod is almost yanked out of my hands. A rainbow, bigger than I have ever caught before, leaps clear of the water. That's it I think, it's off as that's the usual way with me. It's still on! It bores deep, jumps clear maybe two or three more times. It's still on! Maybe, just maybe this time.........

Then everything goes slack. F*ck, here we go again, which knot this time or has the hook lost its hold? I reel in. To my amazement the braided loop that was "permanently" attached to the fly line on purchase has gone AWOL (yellow line in photo below, other spool shows the type of loop that was attached originally). Unbelievable. Not only that, I have no fix. Tried a needle knot but that would not hold, just slipped off the fly line and I'm not going to risk another lovely rainbow swimming off with 18' of leader and a hook in its mouth. So, my day is cut short after two hours. I have other lines but no other floaters.

So, the question is (apart from should I just give up fly fishing altogether) is this a common fault/problem? Has it happened to anyone else? The line is decent quality, Greys I think.

IMG_4563.jpg
 

thetrouttickler

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Yes. I avoid them.

A trick I picked up in NZ: gently remove about two or three inches of the plastic fly line coating at the tip to expose the inner core line, then tie a double surgeon's loop with that to create a loop for your leader. Voila.
 

PaulD

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Those loops are poor, they're too long. If you want to use a braided loop the best ones to purchase are Roman Moser. Seal the end of the fly line with superglue, slip the loop on as far as it will go then slide the 'securing' tape down to the end of the braid. A little bit of superglue around the edge of the securing sleeve and the braid will creep up under the sleeve by capillary action and you should be good to go.

Personally, I don't use them, preferring instead attaching the butt of the leader with a needle knot, coated lightly with superglue. Never had one fail.
 

shropshire_lad

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Personally, I don't use them, preferring instead attaching the butt of the leader with a needle knot, coated lightly with superglue. Never had one fail.
Paul,

Can you elaborate? Years ago when I fly fished I read a book by Mackenzie-Philps that proposed the only way to get proper leader turnover was to needle knot big butt leaders to the fly line and this is the method I used. However, now it seems hard too find the really large diameter big butt leaders. What sort of leaders are you needle knotting to the fly line and do you actually use a needle to insert the leader through the fly line? That's what I used to do.

Sounds like these loops are a no-no. What puzzles me, however, is when I attached the leader last night to the braided loop I gave things a good old series of firm tugs. What with the shock absorption of the rod I'd not have expected a fish to break the loop the way it did but maybe being soaked in water weakened the adhesive.
 

thetrouttickler

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I change tapered leaders frequently so have never found the needle knot to be my answer. Unless I am missing a trick here.
 

BobP

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That looks more like the actual flyline has failed. Was it a welded loop as in the flyline turned back on itself to form a loop, or was it a braided loop like the other one in the picture?

Moser loops are fine. I have them on all my own lines and change them after two or three seasons. No problems with them. I push the flyline down as far as it will go, add a drop of superglue where line and braid meet and slide the little sleeve up to cover the join. Simple enough, and at Farmoor and other stillwaters I fish 8lb or 9.9lb straight through with three flies with no issues, but then I don't think about it.

Sounds like shropshire lad met up with one of Farmoor's zoo creatures.
 

Secret Angler

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I don't like braided loops - too splashy, though it doesn't matter so much in big lakes or the sea. I always use needle knots but use those profile leaders with a thinner butt.

A good emergency attachment is to knot the end of the fly line, tie a loop to the leader butt and feed the tip through this, trapping the fly line. It's clumsy but gets you out of trouble.
 

shropshire_lad

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Sounds like shropshire lad met up with one of Farmoor's zoo creatures.
Bob,

You have to remember I'm relatively inexperienced and big fish have always eluded me. That said, it was pretty clear the intention of this rainbow from the minute it took. As it had been 2 hours with not a touch I was losing faith and dreaming a bit when suddenly I thought "who's got hold of my arm". The fish went berserk from the outset but when it bored down I have never encountered such strength. Had the braid not parted (it was a braided, not welded, loop) I think it would have been a good while before I had it ready for the net.

Such a shame, but I'll get over it. On one of your flies too I think, although it may have been one of Wee Jimmy's or Noddy's.

I think I'll try the needle knot at home as per advice above as that always worked for me in the past with a tapered leader but also look into those Moser loops.
 

PaulD

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Paul,

Can you elaborate? Years ago when I fly fished I read a book by Mackenzie-Philps that proposed the only way to get proper leader turnover was to needle knot big butt leaders to the fly line and this is the method I used. However, now it seems hard too find the really large diameter big butt leaders. What sort of leaders are you needle knotting to the fly line and do you actually use a needle to insert the leader through the fly line? That's what I used to do.

Sounds like these loops are a no-no. What puzzles me, however, is when I attached the leader last night to the braided loop I gave things a good old series of firm tugs. What with the shock absorption of the rod I'd not have expected a fish to break the loop the way it did but maybe being soaked in water weakened the adhesive.
I regularly needle knot 4ft of the butt end of a Rio, 9ft, 5X tapered leader to my fly line and at the end of that I attach a 2mm tippet ring, then 'build' the leader plus required droppers on there on using 3X, 4X, 5X material as required by whatever sized flies I'm using.

If I'm making self tied tapered leaders I may start with mono that's 0.45mm in diameter - 06X.
 

speytime

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A properly fitted braided loop will never slip off, it's the fitter that's the problem not the method.
I've only had one fail on me, that was fitted by a well known shop, that taught me to fit my own.
Moser loops with a few mm of whipping and a dab of aquasure.
Or uni/nail knot 4lb nylon over the edge of the braid then aquasure or slip the sleeve over the knot.
Personally I wouldn't use super glue on my lines it's to hard aquasure is strong and flexible.

For the river I wouldn't mind a permanent connection to a leader, for stillwater I like a loop it let's me change between nylon/fluoro tapers and use polytips if necessary.
I also thought from the photo that the line had snapped, is that definitely the piece the loop was connected to?

Eta... Should the likes happen again tie a simple overhand knot in the tip of your line, then tie a loop in your leader/cast and loop the leader over the knot, it's an extremely simple strong and reliable method that's been used forever.

Al
 
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shropshire_lad

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I also thought from the photo that the line had snapped, is that definitely the piece the loop was connected to?


Al
Hi Al, Bob mentioned the same. I think the confusion is I tried unsuccessfully on the bank to nail knot a leader afterwards to the line. I was using a needle to make a hole in the line to try and thread the leader through and then nail knot - that's the way I have always done it. I think that's why the end of the fly line looks a bit mangled and why some may think it snapped. Of course, it may have snapped, I'm not sure exactly what happened but my guess is the braided loop was pulled off.

I think there's a consensus building here about Moser so I'll look into them.
 

wobbly face

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If it was attached like the other spooled line then everything slipped of the fly line. I've used braided loops a lot and will cut down the length of the braid that goes over the fly line.
As per Bob's post, dab of super glue where the line meets the actual braid loop. I use to apply super glue to end of the braid and over the fly line then push the silicon tube over that. This however makes the fly line and sleeve brittle which causes cracking of the fly line at the end of the silicon tube. The braided loop and end bit of fly line will hang/hinge. Eventually the fly line will snap as the core gets cut through.
 

sofasurfer

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Loops are the devil's work as you have sadly discovered. Don't wait until another loop let's you down before abandoning them.
 

BobP

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If the end of the fly line in the picture is how it was after the braid went then there was a fault with the line because that has snapped. If it had pulled off it would be obvious from damage to the fly line eg some of the plastic coating would most likely have pulled off.

When braided loops first arrived through Masterline so sometime in the mid-to late-80's at a guess. First time out a Chew trout yanked it off and when I phoned the company to complain I was asked if I had glued it on as well as using the plastic sleeve. I hadn't, but in fairness there was nothing in the packaging to say that that was required.

I've had Moser loops give up the ghost after a couple of years' use through my habit of knotting the leader directly to the loop with a 5 turn tucked half blood knot which will eventually cut through the braid. I've always spotted it in time and changed the loop.

Braided loops too splashy? Why are they landing anywhere near a fish? They shouldn't land within several feet of a fish so he should not be aware of its presence. Of course, if you slam the line down on the water any fish is going to leg it, braided loop or not.
 

original cormorant

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My guess is that if the braided loop had not been whipped on then the braid could have "relaxed" after several years without being used so that it was no longer an effective chinese grip. Does this explanation fit the evidence?
 
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